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[Music]

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welcome to the skeptic zone

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the podcast from australia for science

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and reason

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[Music]

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yes it's the skeptic zone podcast

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episode number 625

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for the 4th of october 2020 richard

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zunda is coming to you from

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sydney australia i can't look out the

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window to tell you what the day's like

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because it's not day

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it's night i'm up early

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according to my clock it's five o'clock

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in the morning

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this time of the year early birds

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literally early birds start to whistle

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and hoot and cry and run around and

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screech and do all sorts of things

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and in this case this skeptical early

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bird is getting the worm

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the worm being a nice quiet uh

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environment to record

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now the skeptic's own studios are great

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i love them

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but they're not soundproof and i know

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some listeners out there will hear the

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odd bird tweeting

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through bits of the show oh well not too

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much i can do about that apart from

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getting up at this ridiculous

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hour hmm i think i spoke too soon i

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just heard a bird somewhere hmm

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coming up on this week's show part one

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of a three-part interview with brian

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dear

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the man who wrote the doctor

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who fooled the world about the andrew

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wakefield

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vaccination mmr autism saga

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our very own heidi robertson the raw

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skeptic conducts this

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three-part interview well it was a

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one-part interview that went on for a

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long time so we split it up

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into three parts part one today where

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brian dear

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we'll give an overview of the andrew

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wakefield paper how the children

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in the study were recruited the 100

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million dollar lawsuit and how some of

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the diagnosis of some of the children

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was changed to suit an end goal and

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following that it's michelle biggesmar

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back again with more logical fallacies

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this week michelle's going to be looking

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at poisoning

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the well sort of a preemptive strike

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i guess it comes from don't drink the

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water from that well it's poisoned

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whether it is poisoned or not then we

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have the book of tim with tim mendom

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and this week it's trials by fire

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tim reading from reports and uh

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interviews and excerpts and so on from

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the

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it's our continuing look into trove

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the archive of gazettes newspapers

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periodicals magazines from australian

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history

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and this week we're going to look for

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the term haunted

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house so i'm

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keeping a close eye on the time it says

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okay

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now we're coming up to 5 20 because of

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various stops and starts and the

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kookaburras have started outside

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and various other birds all right mental

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note i'm going to have to start

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recording at about

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4 30 in the morning

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maybe one day the skeptic's own studios

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can be soundproofed

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with rubber walls stay tuned at the end

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of the show for some very important

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announcements but now it's time for me

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to run downstairs tiptoe

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over those sleeping skeptics own cats

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well

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i think they're sleeping they had their

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breakfast a few minutes ago

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and they looked at me saying breakfast

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at this time of day

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yeah okay they didn't seem to complain

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anyway i'm gonna tiptoe down the stairs

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and get a nice cup of coffee to wake

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myself up

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and i think some um toast with butter

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will do

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for this morning birds they might be

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magpies ibis

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they're known as bin chickens in this

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country there's ibis birds magpies ibis

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and maybe a blue wren who knows

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and a kookaburra while i do that i hope

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you enjoy

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it's the raw skeptic report with heidi

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robinson

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[Music]

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hello everyone heidi robertson from the

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northern rivers vaccination supporters

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as a vaccine advocate speaking with many

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other vaccine advocates

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all around the world i don't think i've

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ever come across

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anyone that's familiar with vaccines who

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thinks or claims that they are

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100 percent safe 100 percent of the time

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there's nothing in life that is but like

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everything else

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we look at the risks and the benefits

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and it's pretty clear that for the vast

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majority of us

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there is no reason to not be vaccinated

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the benefits far far outweigh the risks

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it is not beneficial from a health or

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economic perspective

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for governments to back immunization

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programs that

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kill and maim their populations

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this isn't to say that big pharma should

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just get a free pass when it comes to

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vaccination

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we need people to hold them to account

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and to ensure that any vaccine that is

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released

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holds up in terms of its safety profile

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this is important in the release of any

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new covert 19 vaccine for example

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we need to make sure that political

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pressure doesn't interfere with good

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scientific process brian dear has had

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a special interest during his career as

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an investigative reporter

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on holding big pharma to account and

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exposing

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fraud and shoddy research within the

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industry

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one could be forgiven for thinking that

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this would give him some

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semblance of credibility within the

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anti-vaccination community

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seeing as they have very little regard

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for pharmaceutical companies

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but this was not to be the case

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what brian uncovered did not please the

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anti-vaccination community

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it simply did not fit into the world

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view they had created

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and which was encouraged and exploited

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by figures

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like andrew wakefield mr andrew

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wakefield

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formerly a research gastroenterologist

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from england

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had a paper published in 1998 in the

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respected

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medical journal the lancet in which he

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and his co-authors claimed a possible

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link between the mmr vaccine

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bowel disease and a sudden onset of

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autism

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they suggested this link after studying

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just 12

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children the paper was eventually

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retracted thanks to brian d's

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investigations but the damage

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had already been done and in fact

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continues to this day with parents all

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over the world

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doubting the safety of the mmr vaccine

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vaccination rates plummeted measles

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predictably

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made a comeback and many people who

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don't even know wakefield's name

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still have the vague association

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that maybe the mmr vaccine is somehow

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associated with autism

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most people who have an interest in

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vaccination have heard

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the bare bones of the story but this new

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book

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by brian dear covers the sheer vastness

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of the scam in so much detail

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that it may well take more than one

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reading

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to start to grasp the who's who and the

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what's what

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of what actually went on

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i started the book underlining what i

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thought were the most

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damning bits of evidence that were

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uncovered and before long

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had to discard my pen as i was

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underlining

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almost every line on every page

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the book is the doctor who fooled the

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world

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and i'd now like to introduce you all to

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the man who showed

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such an incredible determination

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persistence

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and drive over 15 years to uncover the

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truth behind the

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infamous landsat study by the equally

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infamous andrew wakefield now there are

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so many facets to this story

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and the book that my interview with

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brian deere is split into three parts

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today in part one brian gives us

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an overview of the original wakefield

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paper

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how the children in the study were

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recruited the 100 million

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lawsuit and how the diagnosis of some of

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the children

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was changed to suit the end goal

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mr brian dear welcome to the skeptic

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zone hello hi eddie good to be here

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brian tell us how why

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and by whom the 12 children for

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wakefield's landsat

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study were recruited and if you could

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explain

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why this was a problem in terms of

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transparency and good scientific process

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okay for people who are new to this one

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um probably we ought to go back to

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the basics of saying well what are we

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talking about here we're talking

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about a research paper four thousand

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words

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four pages in the or was it five pages

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it might be in five pages in the

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lancet medical journal published in

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february 1998

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22 years ago long time ago and this is

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this is essentially the way the world

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took this paper the way it was presented

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it was presented to be a case series of

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12

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children who had been brought to a

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london hospital the royal free

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in hampstead where they underwent a

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battery of investigations ultimately the

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paper published

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claimed that these parents of these 12

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children had turned up

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to a children's bowel clinic in the

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cases of 8 out of 12 of the children

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i have to be careful all the time

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because there were 11 families and 12

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children because two of the children

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were

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brothers so i have to be very careful

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about the way i formulate this otherwise

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wakefield gets onto me about everything

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um

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so there were these uh 12 children

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eight of them their parents said we took

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it all of them said we took our children

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to doctors to be vaccinated against mmr

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and in eight of the cases of the

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children

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the parents said that within 14 days

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these children showed the first symptoms

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of autism

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things like loss of language gays

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avoidance

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all the classical symptoms of autism and

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there was a press conference at the

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royal free hospital in london where this

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thing

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was done and particularly in its medical

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school where they announced to the world

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that they found a putative cause

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of autism the mmr vaccine

289
00:11:54,949 --> 00:11:53,200
and i should also say that wakefield

290
00:11:57,509 --> 00:11:54,959
claimed as as evidence of this

291
00:11:58,230 --> 00:11:57,519
this uh this new syndrome as he called

292
00:12:00,310 --> 00:11:58,240
it that

293
00:12:01,990 --> 00:12:00,320
the children had what he called a new

294
00:12:04,629 --> 00:12:02,000
inflammatory bowel disease

295
00:12:07,430 --> 00:12:04,639
children had autism and the parents said

296
00:12:10,790 --> 00:12:07,440
it was the mmr doctor it came on within

297
00:12:13,190 --> 00:12:10,800
two weeks of vaccination so that

298
00:12:15,430 --> 00:12:13,200
at face value some people who the sort

299
00:12:17,829 --> 00:12:15,440
of armchair commentators on all this and

300
00:12:20,550 --> 00:12:17,839
the medical establishment in particular

301
00:12:22,550 --> 00:12:20,560
like to say afterwards that well 12

302
00:12:24,230 --> 00:12:22,560
children what does that mean that's not

303
00:12:27,430 --> 00:12:24,240
important how can that be

304
00:12:29,750 --> 00:12:27,440
something worth huge media retention uh

305
00:12:31,829 --> 00:12:29,760
and then subsequently papers were done

306
00:12:33,509 --> 00:12:31,839
research was done involving tens and

307
00:12:35,350 --> 00:12:33,519
hundreds of thousands of children

308
00:12:38,069 --> 00:12:35,360
which found no such connection between

309
00:12:40,230 --> 00:12:38,079
the vaccine and autism but nevertheless

310
00:12:42,790 --> 00:12:40,240
you have to bear in mind that the

311
00:12:45,590 --> 00:12:42,800
landmark discoveries of medicine

312
00:12:46,230 --> 00:12:45,600
are generally reported in a single

313
00:12:51,430 --> 00:12:46,240
patient

314
00:12:53,750 --> 00:12:51,440
classic one i suppose of recent years

315
00:12:55,430 --> 00:12:53,760
was the what became known as aids

316
00:12:58,310 --> 00:12:55,440
which was first reported in a case

317
00:13:00,150 --> 00:12:58,320
series of five gay men in los angeles

318
00:13:01,829 --> 00:13:00,160
so the fact there was only 12 children

319
00:13:02,230 --> 00:13:01,839
neither here or there because this could

320
00:13:05,030 --> 00:13:02,240
be

321
00:13:05,990 --> 00:13:05,040
potentially the first snapshot of a

322
00:13:08,389 --> 00:13:06,000
hidden epidemic

323
00:13:09,190 --> 00:13:08,399
of catastrophic injuries to children

324
00:13:11,590 --> 00:13:09,200
which

325
00:13:12,550 --> 00:13:11,600
doctors at other hospitals simply hadn't

326
00:13:14,389 --> 00:13:12,560
noticed

327
00:13:15,990 --> 00:13:14,399
so wakefield stood up at a uh well

328
00:13:17,269 --> 00:13:16,000
actually stand up he was sitting down he

329
00:13:19,350 --> 00:13:17,279
was at this press conference and he

330
00:13:22,949 --> 00:13:19,360
called on the government to suspend

331
00:13:24,230 --> 00:13:22,959
the mmr vaccine and for parents

332
00:13:26,150 --> 00:13:24,240
to ask for their children to be

333
00:13:28,230 --> 00:13:26,160
vaccinated with single vaccines one

334
00:13:29,350 --> 00:13:28,240
against measles one against mumps once

335
00:13:32,310 --> 00:13:29,360
against rubella

336
00:13:34,790 --> 00:13:32,320
spread out over a year so that was the

337
00:13:37,829 --> 00:13:34,800
the paper that set off

338
00:13:41,030 --> 00:13:37,839
the controversy over the mmr vaccine

339
00:13:43,430 --> 00:13:41,040
and which really is the the basis

340
00:13:44,230 --> 00:13:43,440
of all the activity that's gone on be

341
00:13:47,110 --> 00:13:44,240
between

342
00:13:48,230 --> 00:13:47,120
then and now over those 22 years is now

343
00:13:50,230 --> 00:13:48,240
flourishing

344
00:13:51,269 --> 00:13:50,240
with the controversy over the

345
00:13:54,389 --> 00:13:51,279
development of a

346
00:13:55,110 --> 00:13:54,399
covid19 vaccine at great haste yes so

347
00:13:58,069 --> 00:13:55,120
that that

348
00:13:58,710 --> 00:13:58,079
the actual recruitment of the 12

349
00:14:02,069 --> 00:13:58,720
children

350
00:14:05,269 --> 00:14:02,079
um i guess i'm what i'm getting at is

351
00:14:06,150 --> 00:14:05,279
how it was done with this study as

352
00:14:09,110 --> 00:14:06,160
opposed to

353
00:14:10,870 --> 00:14:09,120
how it would usually be done in what we

354
00:14:12,550 --> 00:14:10,880
might call a well-designed study

355
00:14:14,550 --> 00:14:12,560
well it's a case series it's a case

356
00:14:16,949 --> 00:14:14,560
series of patients so it's a it

357
00:14:17,750 --> 00:14:16,959
it purports to be a description of the

358
00:14:20,629 --> 00:14:17,760
children's

359
00:14:21,590 --> 00:14:20,639
uh they're all anonymized their ages

360
00:14:27,030 --> 00:14:21,600
their

361
00:14:28,629 --> 00:14:27,040
developmental diagnosis or what the

362
00:14:29,590 --> 00:14:28,639
paper called their neuropsychiatric

363
00:14:32,150 --> 00:14:29,600
diagnosis

364
00:14:33,590 --> 00:14:32,160
and it was split into two there were two

365
00:14:35,269 --> 00:14:33,600
tables within the paper

366
00:14:37,269 --> 00:14:35,279
one covered what wait for called the

367
00:14:40,629 --> 00:14:37,279
neuropsychiatric diagnosis

368
00:14:42,790 --> 00:14:40,639
and the other included the supposed uh

369
00:14:44,150 --> 00:14:42,800
bowel diagnosis so that's that's what it

370
00:14:46,629 --> 00:14:44,160
appeared to be

371
00:14:47,430 --> 00:14:46,639
but now to get to your question which is

372
00:14:51,030 --> 00:14:47,440
what was it

373
00:14:53,829 --> 00:14:51,040
really what was this paper really uh

374
00:14:54,710 --> 00:14:53,839
about and how is it really done this

375
00:14:57,990 --> 00:14:54,720
paper

376
00:15:00,710 --> 00:14:58,000
was commissioned by a firm of lawyers

377
00:15:01,269 --> 00:15:00,720
and under wakefield's control was only

378
00:15:04,230 --> 00:15:01,279
ever

379
00:15:05,750 --> 00:15:04,240
going to reach one conclusion because

380
00:15:07,990 --> 00:15:05,760
wayford himself had been

381
00:15:09,750 --> 00:15:08,000
hired by this firm of lawyers at

382
00:15:13,350 --> 00:15:09,760
generous hourly rates and

383
00:15:14,550 --> 00:15:13,360
told that if he got positive results

384
00:15:17,509 --> 00:15:14,560
from these children

385
00:15:19,509 --> 00:15:17,519
then a lawsuit would be launched and

386
00:15:22,790 --> 00:15:19,519
indeed a lawsuit was launched

387
00:15:25,990 --> 00:15:22,800
involving 1600 children it consumed

388
00:15:28,310 --> 00:15:26,000
i think in on both sides if you take

389
00:15:29,269 --> 00:15:28,320
both sides of the lawsuit that went

390
00:15:31,269 --> 00:15:29,279
forward

391
00:15:32,310 --> 00:15:31,279
about half of it was paid by the british

392
00:15:35,430 --> 00:15:32,320
taxpayer through

393
00:15:37,110 --> 00:15:35,440
legal aid it's a it's a a fund system

394
00:15:39,189 --> 00:15:37,120
for people who can't afford to sue

395
00:15:41,670 --> 00:15:39,199
and about half of it was paid by the

396
00:15:45,269 --> 00:15:41,680
drug industry defendants consumed

397
00:15:47,110 --> 00:15:45,279
in u.s dollars um at about the rough

398
00:15:50,069 --> 00:15:47,120
conversion rates that we have now

399
00:15:52,230 --> 00:15:50,079
100 million us dollars so this is that

400
00:15:55,110 --> 00:15:52,240
loss it was a 100 million

401
00:15:55,910 --> 00:15:55,120
us dollar lawsuit that was set off by

402
00:15:58,470 --> 00:15:55,920
this thing

403
00:16:00,310 --> 00:15:58,480
firstly wakefield had this monstrous

404
00:16:02,710 --> 00:16:00,320
monstrous conflict of interest

405
00:16:03,990 --> 00:16:02,720
that when he appeared to be a

406
00:16:07,430 --> 00:16:04,000
dispassionate

407
00:16:07,990 --> 00:16:07,440
academic researcher at a london medical

408
00:16:10,710 --> 00:16:08,000
school he

409
00:16:11,350 --> 00:16:10,720
was behind the scenes and undeclared to

410
00:16:14,710 --> 00:16:11,360
the public

411
00:16:17,030 --> 00:16:14,720
or to the lancet that a hired gun

412
00:16:17,910 --> 00:16:17,040
for a firm of lawyers trying to make a

413
00:16:19,990 --> 00:16:17,920
case

414
00:16:21,030 --> 00:16:20,000
against the mmr vaccine so that's the

415
00:16:22,870 --> 00:16:21,040
first thing

416
00:16:24,310 --> 00:16:22,880
so what did he then do what happened

417
00:16:26,710 --> 00:16:24,320
then these children

418
00:16:27,350 --> 00:16:26,720
who turned up at the hospital were not

419
00:16:29,269 --> 00:16:27,360
just

420
00:16:31,749 --> 00:16:29,279
patients coming in off the street we're

421
00:16:34,389 --> 00:16:31,759
not just part of a normal case series

422
00:16:36,870 --> 00:16:34,399
like the the case series that led to the

423
00:16:37,910 --> 00:16:36,880
first observations of uh what became

424
00:16:39,910 --> 00:16:37,920
known as aids

425
00:16:41,350 --> 00:16:39,920
they were actually being referred

426
00:16:43,350 --> 00:16:41,360
through their parents by an

427
00:16:45,110 --> 00:16:43,360
anti-vaccine group what today we would

428
00:16:47,350 --> 00:16:45,120
call an anti-vaccine group

429
00:16:48,150 --> 00:16:47,360
then at the time it was an anti-mmr

430
00:16:50,949 --> 00:16:48,160
group it was called

431
00:16:52,550 --> 00:16:50,959
jabs and the purpose of jabs was to help

432
00:16:53,430 --> 00:16:52,560
its founder a woman named jackie

433
00:16:56,790 --> 00:16:53,440
fletcher

434
00:17:00,389 --> 00:16:56,800
to get enough other cases of alleged

435
00:17:01,269 --> 00:17:00,399
uh injuries from vaccines to justify the

436
00:17:04,789 --> 00:17:01,279
government

437
00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:04,799
paying for her to have a multi-party or

438
00:17:08,630 --> 00:17:06,480
class action lawsuit so

439
00:17:09,510 --> 00:17:08,640
these children weren't just routine

440
00:17:13,429 --> 00:17:09,520
referrals

441
00:17:14,390 --> 00:17:13,439
motivated group and those parents had

442
00:17:17,669 --> 00:17:14,400
come to make

443
00:17:17,990 --> 00:17:17,679
the allegation against the mmr so when

444
00:17:20,230 --> 00:17:18,000
they

445
00:17:21,909 --> 00:17:20,240
the the this connection between the mmon

446
00:17:23,590 --> 00:17:21,919
autism appeared in what the parents said

447
00:17:25,829 --> 00:17:23,600
when they came to the hospital

448
00:17:27,829 --> 00:17:25,839
well it would because that wasn't a

449
00:17:28,630 --> 00:17:27,839
finding that was part of the papers

450
00:17:30,150 --> 00:17:28,640
methods

451
00:17:31,830 --> 00:17:30,160
that's why they'd come that's why

452
00:17:32,950 --> 00:17:31,840
they've been brought there and i found

453
00:17:34,150 --> 00:17:32,960
that wake would have been actually

454
00:17:36,470 --> 00:17:34,160
phoning around

455
00:17:37,350 --> 00:17:36,480
the parents and and the parents general

456
00:17:39,270 --> 00:17:37,360
practitioners

457
00:17:40,870 --> 00:17:39,280
to ensure that he got the pair of the

458
00:17:43,830 --> 00:17:40,880
children that he wanted

459
00:17:44,470 --> 00:17:43,840
referred to this study so again a

460
00:17:49,990 --> 00:17:44,480
shocking

461
00:17:50,630 --> 00:17:50,000
to the world when that paper was

462
00:17:53,590 --> 00:17:50,640
launched

463
00:17:55,270 --> 00:17:53,600
then what people didn't know and what we

464
00:17:57,190 --> 00:17:55,280
knew as a result of my

465
00:17:59,110 --> 00:17:57,200
investigations this is not to brag but

466
00:18:00,549 --> 00:17:59,120
this is simply to state the truth and

467
00:18:01,750 --> 00:18:00,559
some people have said well how come a

468
00:18:03,510 --> 00:18:01,760
journalist got this

469
00:18:05,190 --> 00:18:03,520
and the medical establishment and the

470
00:18:08,070 --> 00:18:05,200
science community never got this

471
00:18:09,110 --> 00:18:08,080
he had eight months before that press

472
00:18:11,590 --> 00:18:09,120
conference where he

473
00:18:12,230 --> 00:18:11,600
unleashed this paper he'd filed for his

474
00:18:17,990 --> 00:18:12,240
own

475
00:18:20,310 --> 00:18:18,000
a single measles vaccine so there he was

476
00:18:21,830 --> 00:18:20,320
calling for parents to boycott the mmr

477
00:18:23,270 --> 00:18:21,840
for the government to suspend it in

478
00:18:26,070 --> 00:18:23,280
favor of single shots

479
00:18:26,789 --> 00:18:26,080
and he'd patented his own single shot

480
00:18:28,789 --> 00:18:26,799
another

481
00:18:29,990 --> 00:18:28,799
extraordinary conflict of interest which

482
00:18:32,950 --> 00:18:30,000
he never revealed

483
00:18:34,549 --> 00:18:32,960
but then this is where it gets really

484
00:18:37,270 --> 00:18:34,559
interesting because

485
00:18:38,950 --> 00:18:37,280
he'd been hired to create if you like a

486
00:18:41,669 --> 00:18:38,960
fingerprint of damage

487
00:18:43,430 --> 00:18:41,679
and more than two years before that

488
00:18:44,710 --> 00:18:43,440
paper well almost two years before that

489
00:18:47,430 --> 00:18:44,720
paper was published

490
00:18:48,470 --> 00:18:47,440
he'd submitted a grant application with

491
00:18:50,470 --> 00:18:48,480
the lawyer

492
00:18:51,750 --> 00:18:50,480
to the british government's legal aid

493
00:18:55,029 --> 00:18:51,760
scheme to

494
00:18:55,510 --> 00:18:55,039
fund a clinical and scientific study so

495
00:19:00,070 --> 00:18:55,520
it would

496
00:19:00,950 --> 00:19:00,080
that you do at the bedside or the usual

497
00:19:04,549 --> 00:19:00,960
usual

498
00:19:06,549 --> 00:19:04,559
examinations bells uh colonoscopies into

499
00:19:09,590 --> 00:19:06,559
the children's bowels and so forth

500
00:19:10,310 --> 00:19:09,600
and scientific experiments that was

501
00:19:12,870 --> 00:19:10,320
going on

502
00:19:14,470 --> 00:19:12,880
in the laboratory pathology work

503
00:19:17,430 --> 00:19:14,480
molecular pathology stuff

504
00:19:18,070 --> 00:19:17,440
he'd actually been hired by the legal

505
00:19:20,950 --> 00:19:18,080
board

506
00:19:22,310 --> 00:19:20,960
to do the tests that were set out in

507
00:19:24,390 --> 00:19:22,320
this paper

508
00:19:26,230 --> 00:19:24,400
so there was only ever going to be one

509
00:19:29,110 --> 00:19:26,240
conclusion to this paper

510
00:19:31,270 --> 00:19:29,120
so the first thing he did was to when

511
00:19:32,870 --> 00:19:31,280
the children were tested for

512
00:19:34,950 --> 00:19:32,880
bowel inflammation because this was a

513
00:19:37,110 --> 00:19:34,960
bowel clinic they came back

514
00:19:38,630 --> 00:19:37,120
that bowel test came back normal because

515
00:19:39,270 --> 00:19:38,640
they didn't have inflammatory bowel

516
00:19:41,270 --> 00:19:39,280
disease

517
00:19:42,630 --> 00:19:41,280
and the doctors doing it it actually

518
00:19:45,990 --> 00:19:42,640
themselves published

519
00:19:46,950 --> 00:19:46,000
a paper on how you could uh detect those

520
00:19:48,870 --> 00:19:46,960
children or

521
00:19:51,110 --> 00:19:48,880
who were good candidates for

522
00:19:52,150 --> 00:19:51,120
colonoscopies colonoscopy terrible

523
00:19:54,870 --> 00:19:52,160
procedure if you're

524
00:19:55,590 --> 00:19:54,880
for a child um fraught with all kinds of

525
00:19:58,710 --> 00:19:55,600
risks

526
00:19:59,590 --> 00:19:58,720
the next thing was that uh wakefield in

527
00:20:02,710 --> 00:19:59,600
order to

528
00:20:03,430 --> 00:20:02,720
make his um syndrome that he was calling

529
00:20:06,230 --> 00:20:03,440
it

530
00:20:08,630 --> 00:20:06,240
manifest he claimed that they had

531
00:20:09,270 --> 00:20:08,640
non-specific colitis he claimed they had

532
00:20:10,789 --> 00:20:09,280
uh

533
00:20:13,029 --> 00:20:10,799
clinically significant bowel

534
00:20:13,750 --> 00:20:13,039
inflammation and we discovered that

535
00:20:15,590 --> 00:20:13,760
ultimately

536
00:20:17,590 --> 00:20:15,600
that the pathology department of the

537
00:20:19,110 --> 00:20:17,600
hospital and then a pathologist a senior

538
00:20:22,470 --> 00:20:19,120
pathologist in medical school

539
00:20:24,230 --> 00:20:22,480
found no inflammatory bowel disease

540
00:20:27,190 --> 00:20:24,240
he claimed that these children had

541
00:20:28,950 --> 00:20:27,200
swellings in their in their small bowels

542
00:20:31,270 --> 00:20:28,960
it turned out that these swellings which

543
00:20:33,510 --> 00:20:31,280
terrified the parents were in fact

544
00:20:34,470 --> 00:20:33,520
normal findings you find in children of

545
00:20:37,830 --> 00:20:34,480
that age and

546
00:20:39,990 --> 00:20:37,840
particularly where they were discovered

547
00:20:42,470 --> 00:20:40,000
in fact these children were a cohort of

548
00:20:45,669 --> 00:20:42,480
children who had

549
00:20:47,909 --> 00:20:45,679
constipation that was their overwhelming

550
00:20:49,590 --> 00:20:47,919
clinical problem constipation and that

551
00:20:51,510 --> 00:20:49,600
was never mentioned in the paper the

552
00:20:53,190 --> 00:20:51,520
normal blood tests were never mentioned

553
00:20:54,870 --> 00:20:53,200
the fact that children were constipated

554
00:20:57,110 --> 00:20:54,880
were never mentioned even though

555
00:20:57,909 --> 00:20:57,120
constipation is known to be associated

556
00:21:01,270 --> 00:20:57,919
with mild

557
00:21:03,190 --> 00:21:01,280
inflammatory changes and then and if

558
00:21:05,190 --> 00:21:03,200
that's not good enough for you if that

559
00:21:07,190 --> 00:21:05,200
wasn't good enough for wakefield

560
00:21:09,590 --> 00:21:07,200
trying to create the appearance of a

561
00:21:13,830 --> 00:21:09,600
link between the mmr vaccine

562
00:21:16,149 --> 00:21:13,840
and autism he changed the diagnoses

563
00:21:16,950 --> 00:21:16,159
of the children the behavioral diagnosis

564
00:21:20,870 --> 00:21:16,960
of children

565
00:21:24,310 --> 00:21:20,880
he changed them to autism some kids had

566
00:21:26,870 --> 00:21:24,320
asperger's syndrome one child just had

567
00:21:28,789 --> 00:21:26,880
fits and these are things that are not

568
00:21:29,990 --> 00:21:28,799
associated with what wakefield wanted

569
00:21:32,710 --> 00:21:30,000
what wafer wanted was

570
00:21:33,669 --> 00:21:32,720
regressive autism there's a particular

571
00:21:35,750 --> 00:21:33,679
kind of

572
00:21:36,870 --> 00:21:35,760
subgroup of children with autism who are

573
00:21:38,310 --> 00:21:36,880
about uh

574
00:21:40,710 --> 00:21:38,320
usually in the second year of life

575
00:21:42,390 --> 00:21:40,720
sometimes they it's usually about a

576
00:21:44,630 --> 00:21:42,400
third of

577
00:21:46,630 --> 00:21:44,640
children with autism diagnosis would

578
00:21:48,230 --> 00:21:46,640
regress they would lose skills they

579
00:21:49,430 --> 00:21:48,240
would appear to go backwards they would

580
00:21:51,110 --> 00:21:49,440
stop playing with their

581
00:21:53,190 --> 00:21:51,120
peers maybe they'd stop speaking or

582
00:21:54,710 --> 00:21:53,200
something like that he wanted to find

583
00:21:57,510 --> 00:21:54,720
regressive autism

584
00:21:58,390 --> 00:21:57,520
asperger's and fits that one of the kids

585
00:22:00,710 --> 00:21:58,400
had

586
00:22:02,789 --> 00:22:00,720
are not regressive but he changed

587
00:22:05,190 --> 00:22:02,799
wakefield changed diagnoses

588
00:22:06,630 --> 00:22:05,200
that were reached by uh specialist

589
00:22:09,470 --> 00:22:06,640
pediatricians right

590
00:22:11,350 --> 00:22:09,480
developmental pediatricians after

591
00:22:13,270 --> 00:22:11,360
multi-disciplinary assessments would

592
00:22:16,070 --> 00:22:13,280
come to a diagnosis

593
00:22:17,470 --> 00:22:16,080
wakefield who was a non-clinical

594
00:22:20,310 --> 00:22:17,480
academic

595
00:22:22,950 --> 00:22:20,320
gastroenterologist a former trainee

596
00:22:25,270 --> 00:22:22,960
surgeon doing laboratory work who had no

597
00:22:27,430 --> 00:22:25,280
clinical responsibility whatsoever he

598
00:22:30,549 --> 00:22:27,440
was as i described in my book

599
00:22:33,350 --> 00:22:30,559
the doctor who fooled the world he was a

600
00:22:34,470 --> 00:22:33,360
doctor without without patients yes he

601
00:22:37,750 --> 00:22:34,480
was a doctor without

602
00:22:40,710 --> 00:22:37,760
patients who changed the diagnoses

603
00:22:41,909 --> 00:22:40,720
that were reached by the clinicians so

604
00:22:44,149 --> 00:22:41,919
i've got parents

605
00:22:45,029 --> 00:22:44,159
from that study who took their children

606
00:22:47,590 --> 00:22:45,039
to that sta

607
00:22:49,350 --> 00:22:47,600
to that hospital for that study who in

608
00:22:52,710 --> 00:22:49,360
my book declare it to be

609
00:22:55,990 --> 00:22:52,720
fraudulent and a complete fabrication

610
00:22:56,230 --> 00:22:56,000
which it was sorry about all that but

611
00:22:59,830 --> 00:22:56,240
it's

612
00:23:03,510 --> 00:22:59,840
oh no that was very comprehensive

613
00:23:05,909 --> 00:23:03,520
oh absolutely excellent um

614
00:23:06,710 --> 00:23:05,919
i dare say the vast majority of our

615
00:23:10,310 --> 00:23:06,720
audience

616
00:23:11,270 --> 00:23:10,320
on the skeptic zone knows at least the

617
00:23:13,830 --> 00:23:11,280
bare bones

618
00:23:15,830 --> 00:23:13,840
as i said in the introduction earlier of

619
00:23:18,950 --> 00:23:15,840
the wakefield story but

620
00:23:21,830 --> 00:23:18,960
you've gone into it in such depth and

621
00:23:24,070 --> 00:23:21,840
obviously the investigation went for how

622
00:23:25,909 --> 00:23:24,080
long was it about 15 years

623
00:23:28,070 --> 00:23:25,919
well it wasn't the whole time i mean i

624
00:23:30,149 --> 00:23:28,080
did other things it's a bit sad if i

625
00:23:32,630 --> 00:23:30,159
if i just did this i had to stop and

626
00:23:33,430 --> 00:23:32,640
start because he sued me twice he sued

627
00:23:36,390 --> 00:23:33,440
me and

628
00:23:37,190 --> 00:23:36,400
the channel 4 network here in london he

629
00:23:40,149 --> 00:23:37,200
sued the

630
00:23:40,630 --> 00:23:40,159
uh british medical journal and me uh

631
00:23:42,549 --> 00:23:40,640
both

632
00:23:43,830 --> 00:23:42,559
cases were well one he abandoned the

633
00:23:46,310 --> 00:23:43,840
other one was thrown out

634
00:23:48,789 --> 00:23:46,320
so it stopped and started and the thing

635
00:23:50,149 --> 00:23:48,799
unraveled i i kind of describe it as

636
00:23:53,350 --> 00:23:50,159
like peeling the onion

637
00:23:55,029 --> 00:23:53,360
because at the heart of the time delay

638
00:23:56,630 --> 00:23:55,039
was a hearing by the uk's general

639
00:23:59,110 --> 00:23:56,640
medical council which

640
00:24:00,230 --> 00:23:59,120
uh held a an investigation they spent

641
00:24:02,070 --> 00:24:00,240
about a couple of years

642
00:24:03,269 --> 00:24:02,080
with their lawyers investigating what

643
00:24:05,269 --> 00:24:03,279
i'd reported

644
00:24:06,549 --> 00:24:05,279
and found it to be true and then it was

645
00:24:09,190 --> 00:24:06,559
brought forward to a

646
00:24:10,789 --> 00:24:09,200
public hearing which although there was

647
00:24:12,789 --> 00:24:10,799
only one journalist there and that was

648
00:24:14,710 --> 00:24:12,799
me went on for 217

649
00:24:17,269 --> 00:24:14,720
days which means it was longer than the

650
00:24:19,909 --> 00:24:17,279
trial of o.j simpson and that again

651
00:24:20,549 --> 00:24:19,919
delayed the whole thing so uh i was i

652
00:24:22,710 --> 00:24:20,559
wasn't

653
00:24:24,710 --> 00:24:22,720
laboring on this thing for all those

654
00:24:25,669 --> 00:24:24,720
years but uh it was spread out over that

655
00:24:27,990 --> 00:24:25,679
period of time

656
00:24:29,510 --> 00:24:28,000
the work was uh was fundamentally an

657
00:24:30,070 --> 00:24:29,520
investigation for the sunny times london

658
00:24:33,269 --> 00:24:30,080
with a

659
00:24:34,630 --> 00:24:33,279
a an extra a program i made for the

660
00:24:36,149 --> 00:24:34,640
channel 4 network then the british

661
00:24:38,870 --> 00:24:36,159
medical journal did a

662
00:24:40,549 --> 00:24:38,880
long series three pieces three long

663
00:24:41,430 --> 00:24:40,559
pieces then another piece and another

664
00:24:44,710 --> 00:24:41,440
piece

665
00:24:45,750 --> 00:24:44,720
and then finally the the full story is

666
00:24:47,669 --> 00:24:45,760
in the book so yeah

667
00:24:49,430 --> 00:24:47,679
and i tell you that book took two years

668
00:24:52,470 --> 00:24:49,440
to write because it was all

669
00:24:55,669 --> 00:24:52,480
referenced and then all the documents

670
00:24:57,750 --> 00:24:55,679
were prepared as pdfs and supplied to my

671
00:24:59,750 --> 00:24:57,760
publishers so they could check them

672
00:25:01,669 --> 00:24:59,760
because one of the things that wakefield

673
00:25:02,789 --> 00:25:01,679
does is to say always this is just this

674
00:25:04,950 --> 00:25:02,799
one person this

675
00:25:05,830 --> 00:25:04,960
journalist and and so on and so forth

676
00:25:07,669 --> 00:25:05,840
but it's not

677
00:25:09,590 --> 00:25:07,679
this work has been massively checked and

678
00:25:11,190 --> 00:25:09,600
now particularly by johns hopkins

679
00:25:11,909 --> 00:25:11,200
university press which is the lead

680
00:25:14,789 --> 00:25:11,919
publisher

681
00:25:15,430 --> 00:25:14,799
in north america and um scribe is the

682
00:25:18,549 --> 00:25:15,440
publisher

683
00:25:19,190 --> 00:25:18,559
in in australia and um the uk and new

684
00:25:21,909 --> 00:25:19,200
zealand

685
00:25:23,350 --> 00:25:21,919
yeah so you'd want to be absolutely 100

686
00:25:24,390 --> 00:25:23,360
certain that everything you are going to

687
00:25:27,110 --> 00:25:24,400
put in that book

688
00:25:28,870 --> 00:25:27,120
uh can be backed up and referenced

689
00:25:32,230 --> 00:25:28,880
especially given

690
00:25:38,789 --> 00:25:32,240
wakefield's propensity for

691
00:25:42,710 --> 00:25:41,350
that was part one of my interview with

692
00:25:46,549 --> 00:25:42,720
brian dear

693
00:25:48,710 --> 00:25:46,559
next week in part two brian talks about

694
00:25:49,990 --> 00:25:48,720
why wakefield left the royal free

695
00:25:52,789 --> 00:25:50,000
hospital

696
00:25:53,830 --> 00:25:52,799
conflicts of interest buying blood from

697
00:25:56,950 --> 00:25:53,840
children

698
00:25:59,269 --> 00:25:56,960
and some of his other investigations

699
00:26:00,149 --> 00:25:59,279
you can find a link to brian's book in

700
00:26:13,269 --> 00:26:00,159
this week's

701
00:26:17,350 --> 00:26:15,990
hi there i'm abhijeet and i host the

702
00:26:20,310 --> 00:26:17,360
rationable podcast

703
00:26:21,830 --> 00:26:20,320
on berationable.com every couple of

704
00:26:23,110 --> 00:26:21,840
weeks i science the hell out of

705
00:26:25,669 --> 00:26:23,120
alternative medicines

706
00:26:26,630 --> 00:26:25,679
health and nutrition fads social media

707
00:26:29,909 --> 00:26:26,640
forwards

708
00:26:32,310 --> 00:26:29,919
science news and lots more of course

709
00:26:34,230 --> 00:26:32,320
you can find all of my articles podcast

710
00:26:38,470 --> 00:26:34,240
episodes and lots more

711
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:38,480
on www.berationable.com

712
00:27:06,320 --> 00:26:50,830
[Music]

713
00:27:09,830 --> 00:27:06,330
logical fallacies

714
00:27:12,630 --> 00:27:09,840
[Music]

715
00:27:14,470 --> 00:27:12,640
what are logical fallacies and why is it

716
00:27:17,110 --> 00:27:14,480
important that critical thinkers should

717
00:27:19,430 --> 00:27:17,120
know about them

718
00:27:21,110 --> 00:27:19,440
a logical fallacy is an error we can

719
00:27:23,110 --> 00:27:21,120
make in reasoning

720
00:27:27,430 --> 00:27:23,120
but it usually crops up when we are

721
00:27:31,830 --> 00:27:29,590
some people might even knowingly use

722
00:27:32,710 --> 00:27:31,840
them to try and score cheap points in an

723
00:27:35,990 --> 00:27:32,720
argument

724
00:27:38,549 --> 00:27:36,000
due to intellectual laziness

725
00:27:40,389 --> 00:27:38,559
they are traps we can fall into but if

726
00:27:42,470 --> 00:27:40,399
we know what to look out for

727
00:27:46,950 --> 00:27:42,480
we can spot them when they occur and

728
00:27:51,029 --> 00:27:49,830
this time we'll look at poisoning the

729
00:27:54,230 --> 00:27:51,039
well

730
00:27:56,549 --> 00:27:54,240
also known as smear tactics this is when

731
00:27:59,190 --> 00:27:56,559
you try to discredit your opponent

732
00:28:00,470 --> 00:27:59,200
or an institution especially in the

733
00:28:03,590 --> 00:28:00,480
minds of others

734
00:28:04,950 --> 00:28:03,600
before even entering into a debate or

735
00:28:08,070 --> 00:28:04,960
conversation

736
00:28:10,870 --> 00:28:08,080
this can take many forms and can be used

737
00:28:14,070 --> 00:28:10,880
in many situations

738
00:28:15,190 --> 00:28:14,080
casting doubt on people or ideas you

739
00:28:18,630 --> 00:28:15,200
don't agree with

740
00:28:20,149 --> 00:28:18,640
is hard to avoid but you shouldn't use

741
00:28:23,669 --> 00:28:20,159
it in place of a sound

742
00:28:25,590 --> 00:28:23,679
argument based on the points they raise

743
00:28:27,830 --> 00:28:25,600
thank you ladies and gentlemen for

744
00:28:30,789 --> 00:28:27,840
hearing my opening arguments

745
00:28:32,230 --> 00:28:30,799
now it's time for my opponent to try and

746
00:28:34,310 --> 00:28:32,240
give their side

747
00:28:36,870 --> 00:28:34,320
if nothing else let's hope they're at

748
00:28:40,470 --> 00:28:36,880
least entertaining

749
00:28:42,710 --> 00:28:40,480
not very polite or sporting here we have

750
00:28:44,149 --> 00:28:42,720
a case of someone trying to belittle

751
00:28:46,470 --> 00:28:44,159
their opponent

752
00:28:47,750 --> 00:28:46,480
and by extension the arguments they

753
00:28:50,230 --> 00:28:47,760
might use

754
00:28:51,669 --> 00:28:50,240
before even hearing what they have to

755
00:28:53,750 --> 00:28:51,679
say

756
00:28:55,909 --> 00:28:53,760
what you're thinking of applying for the

757
00:28:59,029 --> 00:28:55,919
skeptic's cash prize

758
00:29:01,269 --> 00:28:59,039
look i know your psychic powers are real

759
00:29:02,870 --> 00:29:01,279
but i wouldn't bother replying if i was

760
00:29:06,310 --> 00:29:02,880
you those skeptics

761
00:29:08,230 --> 00:29:06,320
are known to cheat as no one has ever

762
00:29:10,389 --> 00:29:08,240
claimed the prize

763
00:29:12,549 --> 00:29:10,399
the myth of the skeptics cheating when

764
00:29:14,070 --> 00:29:12,559
testing people for the cash prize is

765
00:29:16,549 --> 00:29:14,080
widespread

766
00:29:18,389 --> 00:29:16,559
it often comes about from disgruntled

767
00:29:22,470 --> 00:29:18,399
applicants

768
00:29:25,269 --> 00:29:22,480
who until now have always failed

769
00:29:26,789 --> 00:29:25,279
some honestly believe they were somehow

770
00:29:28,950 --> 00:29:26,799
cheated out of the money

771
00:29:31,190 --> 00:29:28,960
and will warn others who might want to

772
00:29:34,389 --> 00:29:31,200
apply

773
00:29:36,549 --> 00:29:34,399
in reality skeptical groups go to great

774
00:29:39,669 --> 00:29:36,559
lengths to make sure the tests are

775
00:29:42,070 --> 00:29:39,679
fair and honest for all concerned

776
00:29:43,190 --> 00:29:42,080
so to argue that skeptics are going to

777
00:29:45,350 --> 00:29:43,200
cheat you

778
00:29:46,230 --> 00:29:45,360
or set you up to fail if you are a

779
00:29:48,789 --> 00:29:46,240
psychic

780
00:29:50,789 --> 00:29:48,799
just poisons any possibility of

781
00:29:54,149 --> 00:29:50,799
constructive dialogue about

782
00:29:56,389 --> 00:29:54,159
testing extraordinary claims

783
00:29:57,269 --> 00:29:56,399
at the start of the pandemic those

784
00:30:00,549 --> 00:29:57,279
government

785
00:30:00,870 --> 00:30:00,559
so-called medical experts told us that

786
00:30:04,710 --> 00:30:00,880
we

787
00:30:06,950 --> 00:30:04,720
saying that

788
00:30:07,990 --> 00:30:06,960
we do they clearly don't know what

789
00:30:11,029 --> 00:30:08,000
they're talking about with

790
00:30:11,990 --> 00:30:11,039
their chopping and changing you're not

791
00:30:15,590 --> 00:30:12,000
going to get real

792
00:30:17,510 --> 00:30:15,600
information from them so if i were you

793
00:30:19,590 --> 00:30:17,520
i wouldn't even bother listening to

794
00:30:20,149 --> 00:30:19,600
their advice about getting vaccinated

795
00:30:23,269 --> 00:30:20,159
against

796
00:30:25,590 --> 00:30:23,279
covert 19 in the future

797
00:30:27,110 --> 00:30:25,600
here we have a case of casting doubt on

798
00:30:29,990 --> 00:30:27,120
a future vaccine

799
00:30:31,669 --> 00:30:30,000
based on actions taken early on in the

800
00:30:35,190 --> 00:30:31,679
pandemic

801
00:30:37,110 --> 00:30:35,200
in this scenario the medical authorities

802
00:30:38,870 --> 00:30:37,120
who are the proponents of a future

803
00:30:42,310 --> 00:30:38,880
vaccine are being

804
00:30:45,430 --> 00:30:42,320
preemptively attacked the science

805
00:30:47,909 --> 00:30:45,440
and our understanding of covert 19 is

806
00:30:50,950 --> 00:30:47,919
unfolding before our eyes

807
00:30:52,470 --> 00:30:50,960
and medical advice is given on the basis

808
00:30:55,909 --> 00:30:52,480
of the latest known

809
00:30:58,870 --> 00:30:55,919
information at any given time

810
00:30:59,590 --> 00:30:58,880
this is how science works it is not a

811
00:31:05,750 --> 00:30:59,600
linear

812
00:31:07,830 --> 00:31:05,760
neat process

813
00:31:10,630 --> 00:31:07,840
poisoning the well is something that can

814
00:31:12,950 --> 00:31:10,640
happen before we even know it

815
00:31:13,669 --> 00:31:12,960
if you have a low opinion of your

816
00:31:16,950 --> 00:31:13,679
opponent

817
00:31:19,110 --> 00:31:16,960
or their point of view or maybe even you

818
00:31:21,909 --> 00:31:19,120
are ignorant of the issue

819
00:31:24,230 --> 00:31:21,919
it's all too easy for your emotions to

820
00:31:30,830 --> 00:31:24,240
get the better of you

821
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,389
hand

822
00:31:37,430 --> 00:31:36,470
knowing a logical fallacy when you hear

823
00:31:40,230 --> 00:31:37,440
one and

824
00:31:42,710 --> 00:31:40,240
even knowing its name is important when

825
00:31:46,149 --> 00:31:42,720
arguing your point of view

826
00:31:48,549 --> 00:31:46,159
however you may come across as arrogant

827
00:31:49,350 --> 00:31:48,559
and not get very far if you call it out

828
00:31:51,669 --> 00:31:49,360
by name

829
00:31:53,750 --> 00:31:51,679
to your opponent when you hear it being

830
00:31:56,310 --> 00:31:53,760
used

831
00:31:57,110 --> 00:31:56,320
if your opponent calls you out for using

832
00:31:59,350 --> 00:31:57,120
one

833
00:32:02,389 --> 00:31:59,360
it's time to stop and think about how

834
00:32:04,549 --> 00:32:02,399
you are making your case

835
00:32:05,750 --> 00:32:04,559
use your knowledge of logical fallacies

836
00:32:08,470 --> 00:32:05,760
wisely

837
00:32:09,750 --> 00:32:08,480
and remember that even if your point of

838
00:32:12,070 --> 00:32:09,760
view is right

839
00:32:13,350 --> 00:32:12,080
and you know all the pitfalls in arguing

840
00:32:15,830 --> 00:32:13,360
your case

841
00:32:16,950 --> 00:32:15,840
it doesn't always mean you'll win on the

842
00:32:20,310 --> 00:32:16,960
day

843
00:32:22,860 --> 00:32:20,320
and as skeptics we must also remember

844
00:32:25,909 --> 00:32:22,870
that we too can be wrong at times

845
00:32:27,669 --> 00:32:25,919
[Music]

846
00:32:41,590 --> 00:32:27,679
i'm michelle bickersma from the vic

847
00:32:45,190 --> 00:32:43,190
are you looking for a science-based

848
00:32:46,870 --> 00:32:45,200
medical podcast to answer all your

849
00:32:49,430 --> 00:32:46,880
questions about health

850
00:32:50,710 --> 00:32:49,440
check out the body of evidence whether

851
00:32:52,470 --> 00:32:50,720
you're curious about the potential

852
00:32:55,669 --> 00:32:52,480
benefits of omega-3s

853
00:32:55,990 --> 00:32:55,679
or the potential risks of vaping we take

854
00:32:57,909 --> 00:32:56,000
a look

855
00:32:59,029 --> 00:32:57,919
at the body of evidence to separate the

856
00:33:02,630 --> 00:32:59,039
noise the hype

857
00:33:04,549 --> 00:33:02,640
the lies from actual scientific rigor

858
00:33:05,750 --> 00:33:04,559
we do it with comedy skits the only

859
00:33:07,029 --> 00:33:05,760
logical thing to do is for me to take

860
00:33:09,190 --> 00:33:07,039
off all my clothes

861
00:33:11,029 --> 00:33:09,200
and run into the streets no remember the

862
00:33:12,149 --> 00:33:11,039
first rule of podcasting always keep

863
00:33:14,950 --> 00:33:12,159
your pants on

864
00:33:18,149 --> 00:33:14,960
with jingles

865
00:33:20,230 --> 00:33:18,159
[Music]

866
00:33:22,070 --> 00:33:20,240
and by you know discussing what the

867
00:33:23,750 --> 00:33:22,080
evidence has to say on the topic at hand

868
00:33:26,310 --> 00:33:23,760
or less that is a pill

869
00:33:27,990 --> 00:33:26,320
but yeah it has it has the side effects

870
00:33:29,750 --> 00:33:28,000
of bloating gas and greasy stool which

871
00:33:30,549 --> 00:33:29,760
makes it very unpleasant the body of

872
00:33:35,029 --> 00:33:30,559
evidence

873
00:33:37,750 --> 00:33:35,039
your favorite podcast app

874
00:33:38,870 --> 00:33:37,760
the body of evidence medicine that

875
00:33:52,230 --> 00:33:38,880
tastes funny

876
00:33:55,710 --> 00:33:52,240
and science made easy

877
00:33:58,470 --> 00:33:55,720
and now a reading from the book of tim

878
00:34:05,990 --> 00:33:58,480
[Music]

879
00:34:07,990 --> 00:34:06,000
with tim menden

880
00:34:09,190 --> 00:34:08,000
hi my name is tim mendem i'm the

881
00:34:11,430 --> 00:34:09,200
executive officer

882
00:34:13,510 --> 00:34:11,440
of australian skeptics inc and editor of

883
00:34:15,510 --> 00:34:13,520
our magazine the skeptic

884
00:34:17,589 --> 00:34:15,520
and today i'm reading from the section

885
00:34:21,430 --> 00:34:17,599
called what goes around

886
00:34:24,550 --> 00:34:21,440
the skeptic published in march 2017

887
00:34:27,030 --> 00:34:24,560
volume 37 number one

888
00:34:28,310 --> 00:34:27,040
and what goes around is a short column

889
00:34:30,230 --> 00:34:28,320
in the regular feature

890
00:34:32,069 --> 00:34:30,240
in the magazine in which we start off

891
00:34:32,790 --> 00:34:32,079
with a particular fact and work our way

892
00:34:35,109 --> 00:34:32,800
around

893
00:34:36,389 --> 00:34:35,119
and end up back where we started from

894
00:34:39,109 --> 00:34:36,399
which shows that uh

895
00:34:40,629 --> 00:34:39,119
the almost inevitable realization that

896
00:34:43,109 --> 00:34:40,639
all knowledge is connected

897
00:34:44,389 --> 00:34:43,119
and connectable this time we're looking

898
00:34:52,550 --> 00:34:44,399
at fires

899
00:34:55,589 --> 00:34:54,710
we start off with a section called hot

900
00:34:58,470 --> 00:34:55,599
footing at

901
00:35:00,470 --> 00:34:58,480
haha ordeal by fire was initially

902
00:35:02,310 --> 00:35:00,480
regarded as a form of torture

903
00:35:03,990 --> 00:35:02,320
though it is more commonly defined today

904
00:35:05,430 --> 00:35:04,000
as a test of faith

905
00:35:07,430 --> 00:35:05,440
or as a particularly nasty and

906
00:35:09,829 --> 00:35:07,440
confrontational experience

907
00:35:11,670 --> 00:35:09,839
as a test it typically required that the

908
00:35:14,870 --> 00:35:11,680
accused walk a certain distance

909
00:35:17,829 --> 00:35:14,880
usually 2.7 metres over red hot

910
00:35:19,990 --> 00:35:17,839
plowshares or holding a red-hot iron

911
00:35:21,829 --> 00:35:20,000
a bit like modern-day firewalkers really

912
00:35:23,589 --> 00:35:21,839
innocence was sometimes established by a

913
00:35:27,030 --> 00:35:23,599
complete lack of injury

914
00:35:29,829 --> 00:35:27,040
in 1498 dominican friar

915
00:35:32,390 --> 00:35:29,839
girolimo savannah roller who was the

916
00:35:34,550 --> 00:35:32,400
leader of a reform movement in florence

917
00:35:35,510 --> 00:35:34,560
who claimed apocalyptic prophetic

918
00:35:37,430 --> 00:35:35,520
visions

919
00:35:39,750 --> 00:35:37,440
attempted to prove the divine sanction

920
00:35:40,870 --> 00:35:39,760
of his mission by undergoing a trial by

921
00:35:43,349 --> 00:35:40,880
fire

922
00:35:45,510 --> 00:35:43,359
the trial was a fiasco since a sudden

923
00:35:47,349 --> 00:35:45,520
downpour doused the flames

924
00:35:49,670 --> 00:35:47,359
cancelling the event and this was taken

925
00:35:54,109 --> 00:35:49,680
by onlookers as a sign from god

926
00:35:56,870 --> 00:35:54,119
against him now savannah roller

927
00:35:58,069 --> 00:35:56,880
1452-1498 was known for his prophecies

928
00:35:59,990 --> 00:35:58,079
of civic glory

929
00:36:02,230 --> 00:36:00,000
the destruction of secular art and

930
00:36:05,589 --> 00:36:02,240
culture and his calls for a christian

931
00:36:08,069 --> 00:36:05,599
renewal he denounced clerical corruption

932
00:36:09,430 --> 00:36:08,079
despotic rule and the exploitation of

933
00:36:11,270 --> 00:36:09,440
the poor

934
00:36:12,790 --> 00:36:11,280
he prophesied the coming of a biblical

935
00:36:15,349 --> 00:36:12,800
flood and a new

936
00:36:16,950 --> 00:36:15,359
cyrus from the north who would reform

937
00:36:19,109 --> 00:36:16,960
the church

938
00:36:20,310 --> 00:36:19,119
cyrus was of course a persian leader of

939
00:36:23,670 --> 00:36:20,320
one state

940
00:36:25,589 --> 00:36:23,680
in september 1494 when charles viii of

941
00:36:26,470 --> 00:36:25,599
france invaded italy and threatened

942
00:36:28,470 --> 00:36:26,480
florence

943
00:36:29,910 --> 00:36:28,480
such prophecies seemed on the verge of

944
00:36:33,430 --> 00:36:29,920
fulfillment

945
00:36:35,750 --> 00:36:33,440
in 1495 when florence refused to join

946
00:36:37,190 --> 00:36:35,760
pope alexander the sixth holy league

947
00:36:39,270 --> 00:36:37,200
against the french

948
00:36:41,270 --> 00:36:39,280
the vatican summoned savannah roller to

949
00:36:43,270 --> 00:36:41,280
rome he disobeyed

950
00:36:45,910 --> 00:36:43,280
and defied the pope by preaching under a

951
00:36:47,510 --> 00:36:45,920
ban highlighting his reform campaign

952
00:36:50,550 --> 00:36:47,520
with processions

953
00:36:52,470 --> 00:36:50,560
pious theatricals and bonfires of the

954
00:36:57,349 --> 00:36:52,480
vanities

955
00:36:59,430 --> 00:36:57,359
intelligently fallo de la vanita

956
00:37:01,829 --> 00:36:59,440
is a burning of objects condemned by

957
00:37:03,990 --> 00:37:01,839
authorities as occasions of sin

958
00:37:06,630 --> 00:37:04,000
the phrase usually refers to the bonfire

959
00:37:08,390 --> 00:37:06,640
of 7th of february 1497

960
00:37:10,069 --> 00:37:08,400
when supporters of savannah roller

961
00:37:12,550 --> 00:37:10,079
collected and publicly burned

962
00:37:13,109 --> 00:37:12,560
thousands of objects such as cosmetics

963
00:37:15,270 --> 00:37:13,119
art

964
00:37:16,950 --> 00:37:15,280
and books influence on the mardi gras

965
00:37:19,030 --> 00:37:16,960
festival

966
00:37:20,150 --> 00:37:19,040
such bonfires were not invented by

967
00:37:22,230 --> 00:37:20,160
savannah roller

968
00:37:24,790 --> 00:37:22,240
but had been a common accompaniment to

969
00:37:27,430 --> 00:37:24,800
the outdoor sermons of san bernardino d

970
00:37:29,430 --> 00:37:27,440
siena in the first half of the century

971
00:37:31,510 --> 00:37:29,440
the focus of this destruction was

972
00:37:32,550 --> 00:37:31,520
nominally on objects that might tempt

973
00:37:34,470 --> 00:37:32,560
one to sin

974
00:37:35,589 --> 00:37:34,480
including books that were deemed to be

975
00:37:38,069 --> 00:37:35,599
immoral

976
00:37:38,950 --> 00:37:38,079
manuscripts of secular songs artworks

977
00:37:41,589 --> 00:37:38,960
paintings

978
00:37:42,550 --> 00:37:41,599
sculpture and in this case the works of

979
00:37:47,990 --> 00:37:42,560
giovanni

980
00:37:50,870 --> 00:37:48,000
boccaccio picachio 1313-1375

981
00:37:52,470 --> 00:37:50,880
was an italian writer poet and humanist

982
00:37:53,190 --> 00:37:52,480
he wrote a number of notable works

983
00:37:56,390 --> 00:37:53,200
including the

984
00:37:59,030 --> 00:37:56,400
cameron and the geniologia de oro

985
00:38:00,870 --> 00:37:59,040
gentilium which is the genealogy of the

986
00:38:02,470 --> 00:38:00,880
pagan gods

987
00:38:04,150 --> 00:38:02,480
which remains the most comprehensive

988
00:38:07,670 --> 00:38:04,160
guide to pagan mythology

989
00:38:08,230 --> 00:38:07,680
for 200 years the late medieval scots

990
00:38:13,230 --> 00:38:08,240
bishop

991
00:38:17,829 --> 00:38:15,829
1474-1522 was a particular fan of

992
00:38:20,230 --> 00:38:17,839
picaccio

993
00:38:21,510 --> 00:38:20,240
quote but those who laugh at this or

994
00:38:24,950 --> 00:38:21,520
shake their heads

995
00:38:27,430 --> 00:38:24,960
go read bokace in the genealogy of gods

996
00:38:28,870 --> 00:38:27,440
his two last books will remedy their

997
00:38:31,589 --> 00:38:28,880
delusion

998
00:38:32,630 --> 00:38:31,599
douglas matriculated and attained his

999
00:38:35,589 --> 00:38:32,640
master's degree

1000
00:38:37,190 --> 00:38:35,599
at saint andrews university in fife

1001
00:38:40,069 --> 00:38:37,200
named after the patron saint

1002
00:38:41,910 --> 00:38:40,079
of scotland said andrew early first

1003
00:38:43,910 --> 00:38:41,920
century of the current era

1004
00:38:47,589 --> 00:38:43,920
after whom the university and the famous

1005
00:38:50,069 --> 00:38:47,599
golfing town is named had a white cross

1006
00:38:51,829 --> 00:38:50,079
the white saltier as a symbol of the

1007
00:38:53,670 --> 00:38:51,839
cross on which he was crucified

1008
00:38:56,470 --> 00:38:53,680
the saint andrews cross on the scottish

1009
00:38:59,430 --> 00:38:56,480
flag is incorporated in the union jack

1010
00:39:01,190 --> 00:38:59,440
andrew also known as andrew the apostle

1011
00:39:02,470 --> 00:39:01,200
is also a patron saint of many countries

1012
00:39:05,750 --> 00:39:02,480
and towns

1013
00:39:08,870 --> 00:39:05,760
including barbados romania russia

1014
00:39:10,550 --> 00:39:08,880
ukraine prussia amalfi in italy and

1015
00:39:12,069 --> 00:39:10,560
patras in greece

1016
00:39:14,950 --> 00:39:12,079
he is considered the founder and the

1017
00:39:17,270 --> 00:39:14,960
first bishop of the church of byzantium

1018
00:39:18,390 --> 00:39:17,280
and is consequently the patron saint of

1019
00:39:22,230 --> 00:39:18,400
the ecumenical

1020
00:39:24,310 --> 00:39:22,240
patriarchate of constantinople

1021
00:39:26,390 --> 00:39:24,320
byzantium was the center or launching

1022
00:39:26,870 --> 00:39:26,400
place for much of the activity of the

1023
00:39:30,230 --> 00:39:26,880
three

1024
00:39:32,069 --> 00:39:30,240
medieval crusades which ran from 1095 to

1025
00:39:34,150 --> 00:39:32,079
1291

1026
00:39:36,550 --> 00:39:34,160
said andrew featured prominently in the

1027
00:39:38,710 --> 00:39:36,560
visions of peter bartholomew

1028
00:39:40,710 --> 00:39:38,720
a soldier and mystic from france who was

1029
00:39:43,910 --> 00:39:40,720
part of the first crusade

1030
00:39:45,910 --> 00:39:43,920
in december 1097 peter claims and andrew

1031
00:39:48,310 --> 00:39:45,920
took him to the church of saint peter

1032
00:39:51,430 --> 00:39:48,320
inside antioch and showed him where the

1033
00:39:53,589 --> 00:39:51,440
relic of the holy lands could be found

1034
00:39:56,630 --> 00:39:53,599
the lance was supposedly the instrument

1035
00:39:58,630 --> 00:39:56,640
that pierced christ's side on the cross

1036
00:39:59,750 --> 00:39:58,640
accusations later arose that peter had

1037
00:40:02,230 --> 00:39:59,760
faked the vision

1038
00:40:03,190 --> 00:40:02,240
and planted the lance to prove his

1039
00:40:04,870 --> 00:40:03,200
innocence

1040
00:40:06,390 --> 00:40:04,880
peter voluntarily went through the

1041
00:40:10,069 --> 00:40:06,400
ordeal of fire

1042
00:40:12,550 --> 00:40:10,079
in 1099 he died

1043
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:12,560
as a result of his injuries which brings

1044
00:40:18,230 --> 00:40:15,530
us back to where we started

1045
00:40:20,150 --> 00:40:18,240
[Music]

1046
00:40:22,710 --> 00:40:20,160
that was tim mendenham australian

1047
00:40:26,150 --> 00:40:22,720
skeptics reading from the skeptic

1048
00:40:28,510 --> 00:40:26,160
march 2017 and don't forget you can

1049
00:40:29,910 --> 00:40:28,520
always read the skeptic on our website

1050
00:40:31,589 --> 00:40:29,920
skeptics.com.iu

1051
00:40:33,750 --> 00:40:31,599
all the issues apart from the most

1052
00:40:34,950 --> 00:40:33,760
recent four ones which you can download

1053
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:34,960
for free

1054
00:40:51,190 --> 00:40:38,970
including this issue

1055
00:40:54,790 --> 00:40:53,589
hi this is rob palmer i write the

1056
00:40:57,829 --> 00:40:54,800
well-known skeptic

1057
00:40:59,190 --> 00:40:57,839
column in skeptical inquire online and

1058
00:41:01,270 --> 00:40:59,200
i'm a team member of the gorilla

1059
00:41:04,550 --> 00:41:01,280
skeptics and wikipedia project

1060
00:41:05,589 --> 00:41:04,560
gsow but you find folks may know me

1061
00:41:07,670 --> 00:41:05,599
because i contributed

1062
00:41:09,030 --> 00:41:07,680
segments for several episodes of this

1063
00:41:11,829 --> 00:41:09,040
podcast

1064
00:41:15,109 --> 00:41:11,839
check out my interviews from cycon 2019

1065
00:41:17,510 --> 00:41:15,119
starting with episode 576

1066
00:41:19,190 --> 00:41:17,520
so here's a little known fact all of my

1067
00:41:21,349 --> 00:41:19,200
skeptical activism stems from

1068
00:41:24,790 --> 00:41:21,359
discovering the skeptic zone

1069
00:41:27,190 --> 00:41:24,800
yep i first heard of the gsow project

1070
00:41:28,550 --> 00:41:27,200
right here back in 2012 due to richard's

1071
00:41:30,230 --> 00:41:28,560
selfless support of it

1072
00:41:32,870 --> 00:41:30,240
and other skeptical activities around

1073
00:41:34,790 --> 00:41:32,880
the world i can honestly say

1074
00:41:36,710 --> 00:41:34,800
i'd likely still be a skeptical couch

1075
00:41:40,069 --> 00:41:36,720
potato if i hadn't discovered

1076
00:41:40,710 --> 00:41:40,079
this podcast so besides giving back to

1077
00:41:43,190 --> 00:41:40,720
the zone

1078
00:41:44,790 --> 00:41:43,200
by contributing occasional segments i

1079
00:41:47,349 --> 00:41:44,800
contribute to the success of the show

1080
00:41:49,349 --> 00:41:47,359
with ongoing monthly micropayments

1081
00:41:50,470 --> 00:41:49,359
and i'm asking you to consider doing the

1082
00:41:52,470 --> 00:41:50,480
same

1083
00:41:53,589 --> 00:41:52,480
you can do that by following the patreon

1084
00:41:57,030 --> 00:41:53,599
or paypal links

1085
00:41:58,150 --> 00:41:57,040
at skepticzone.tv every donation

1086
00:42:03,330 --> 00:41:58,160
supports the show

1087
00:42:14,829 --> 00:42:03,340
and richard will really appreciate it

1088
00:42:14,839 --> 00:42:18,550
so

1089
00:42:22,630 --> 00:42:20,710
now it's time once again to dive into

1090
00:42:26,150 --> 00:42:22,640
the treasure trove

1091
00:42:28,230 --> 00:42:26,160
and that is trove now trove is the

1092
00:42:30,710 --> 00:42:28,240
online resource made by the australian

1093
00:42:31,990 --> 00:42:30,720
government and the national library of

1094
00:42:35,589 --> 00:42:32,000
australia

1095
00:42:38,470 --> 00:42:35,599
it's trove.nla.gov dot eu

1096
00:42:41,190 --> 00:42:38,480
and it's hundreds thousands of digitized

1097
00:42:44,550 --> 00:42:41,200
newspapers magazines and periodicals

1098
00:42:48,069 --> 00:42:44,560
going back many many years

1099
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:48,079
and this week i thought i would

1100
00:42:56,150 --> 00:42:52,290
do a search on the term haunted house

1101
00:43:00,069 --> 00:42:59,510
and we find ourselves reading the sunday

1102
00:43:04,710 --> 00:43:00,079
times

1103
00:43:07,900 --> 00:43:04,720
from the 11th of august 1901

1104
00:43:10,950 --> 00:43:07,910
sydney's haunted houses

1105
00:43:13,910 --> 00:43:10,960
[Music]

1106
00:43:15,030 --> 00:43:13,920
i do not know of my own knowledge as the

1107
00:43:17,910 --> 00:43:15,040
lawyers say

1108
00:43:19,190 --> 00:43:17,920
that sydney has many haunted houses or

1109
00:43:21,910 --> 00:43:19,200
what are regarded

1110
00:43:22,950 --> 00:43:21,920
as haunted houses although i have heard

1111
00:43:25,750 --> 00:43:22,960
a number

1112
00:43:26,950 --> 00:43:25,760
however i am out today to write of one

1113
00:43:30,470 --> 00:43:26,960
house that some

1114
00:43:33,510 --> 00:43:30,480
people say is haunted and that i know

1115
00:43:35,109 --> 00:43:33,520
something about having lived in it for a

1116
00:43:37,270 --> 00:43:35,119
year or so

1117
00:43:39,829 --> 00:43:37,280
of course the whole question as to

1118
00:43:42,950 --> 00:43:39,839
whether i believe in ghost is at once

1119
00:43:45,190 --> 00:43:42,960
involved in this i must plead

1120
00:43:46,309 --> 00:43:45,200
that i endeavor to keep an open mind on

1121
00:43:48,470 --> 00:43:46,319
the subject

1122
00:43:49,670 --> 00:43:48,480
i cannot say either i believe or

1123
00:43:52,790 --> 00:43:49,680
disbelieve in them

1124
00:43:54,790 --> 00:43:52,800
but certainly i have had a few strange

1125
00:43:58,309 --> 00:43:54,800
experiences that

1126
00:44:00,790 --> 00:43:58,319
had they fallen to others would perhaps

1127
00:44:02,630 --> 00:44:00,800
have entirely convinced them of the

1128
00:44:05,670 --> 00:44:02,640
existence of these

1129
00:44:08,470 --> 00:44:05,680
much discussed alleged

1130
00:44:09,510 --> 00:44:08,480
visitors some of the strange experiences

1131
00:44:12,309 --> 00:44:09,520
i have had

1132
00:44:12,790 --> 00:44:12,319
occurred in the house just alluded to

1133
00:44:16,470 --> 00:44:12,800
and

1134
00:44:20,069 --> 00:44:16,480
they may prove interesting someone

1135
00:44:21,990 --> 00:44:20,079
bending over them in the dead of night

1136
00:44:23,910 --> 00:44:22,000
the house in question is one of two

1137
00:44:26,630 --> 00:44:23,920
stories and after

1138
00:44:27,270 --> 00:44:26,640
a time my family occupied only the lower

1139
00:44:29,270 --> 00:44:27,280
portion

1140
00:44:30,309 --> 00:44:29,280
for the reason that those who slept

1141
00:44:32,309 --> 00:44:30,319
upstairs

1142
00:44:34,150 --> 00:44:32,319
when first we went into the house

1143
00:44:37,270 --> 00:44:34,160
eventually declined

1144
00:44:40,950 --> 00:44:37,280
to continue doing so one of these was

1145
00:44:42,309 --> 00:44:40,960
the maid who declared that her slumbers

1146
00:44:44,309 --> 00:44:42,319
were disturbed

1147
00:44:46,550 --> 00:44:44,319
she would wake up and see a person

1148
00:44:48,630 --> 00:44:46,560
leaning over her bed

1149
00:44:50,069 --> 00:44:48,640
she described the figure which appeared

1150
00:44:52,710 --> 00:44:50,079
just like an ordinary living

1151
00:44:53,270 --> 00:44:52,720
being though there were no resemblance

1152
00:44:56,790 --> 00:44:53,280
between

1153
00:44:59,270 --> 00:44:56,800
it and anyone residing in the house

1154
00:45:01,030 --> 00:44:59,280
or in the neighborhood for that matter

1155
00:45:02,950 --> 00:45:01,040
another of those who asked to be

1156
00:45:04,550 --> 00:45:02,960
excused from sleeping upstairs was a

1157
00:45:07,349 --> 00:45:04,560
child of twelve

1158
00:45:09,589 --> 00:45:07,359
this child claimed to have been visited

1159
00:45:12,230 --> 00:45:09,599
in the same way as the maid

1160
00:45:13,349 --> 00:45:12,240
and described the visitant the

1161
00:45:17,270 --> 00:45:13,359
descriptions

1162
00:45:18,630 --> 00:45:17,280
tallied exactly of course we all

1163
00:45:20,390 --> 00:45:18,640
pooh-poohed the stories

1164
00:45:22,150 --> 00:45:20,400
said they were dreaming and the usual

1165
00:45:24,710 --> 00:45:22,160
things that are said

1166
00:45:26,790 --> 00:45:24,720
under such circumstances but they

1167
00:45:29,670 --> 00:45:26,800
adhered to their stories

1168
00:45:30,630 --> 00:45:29,680
and both the maid and the child were

1169
00:45:33,430 --> 00:45:30,640
evidently

1170
00:45:35,109 --> 00:45:33,440
much impressed a deceased person

1171
00:45:38,230 --> 00:45:35,119
described

1172
00:45:40,309 --> 00:45:38,240
it was months after that that we heard

1173
00:45:42,069 --> 00:45:40,319
that several persons had died in the

1174
00:45:45,190 --> 00:45:42,079
house one of whom

1175
00:45:46,870 --> 00:45:45,200
exactly matched the description given by

1176
00:45:49,990 --> 00:45:46,880
those who declared

1177
00:45:53,030 --> 00:45:50,000
they had seen the nocturnal visitor

1178
00:45:54,550 --> 00:45:53,040
it was suggested that the maid had heard

1179
00:45:57,030 --> 00:45:54,560
gossip in the neighborhood

1180
00:45:57,990 --> 00:45:57,040
and had imagined the rest but this she

1181
00:46:01,109 --> 00:45:58,000
denied

1182
00:46:03,109 --> 00:46:01,119
moreover neither i nor my wife had heard

1183
00:46:05,829 --> 00:46:03,119
any story in relation to this

1184
00:46:07,030 --> 00:46:05,839
apparition although there was supposed

1185
00:46:10,150 --> 00:46:07,040
to be

1186
00:46:13,109 --> 00:46:10,160
something strange about the house

1187
00:46:14,230 --> 00:46:13,119
the customary laughing away of fears

1188
00:46:18,069 --> 00:46:14,240
took place

1189
00:46:18,950 --> 00:46:18,079
whenever anything in this connection was

1190
00:46:22,950 --> 00:46:18,960
mentioned

1191
00:46:26,150 --> 00:46:22,960
but there was no shaking the testimony

1192
00:46:28,710 --> 00:46:26,160
of the principal witnesses my

1193
00:46:29,589 --> 00:46:28,720
own personal experiences in that house

1194
00:46:32,710 --> 00:46:29,599
did not come

1195
00:46:33,190 --> 00:46:32,720
until some time after to say they did

1196
00:46:36,790 --> 00:46:33,200
not

1197
00:46:39,030 --> 00:46:36,800
true

1198
00:46:40,950 --> 00:46:39,040
nevertheless we continued to live in

1199
00:46:44,150 --> 00:46:40,960
their house and no one was

1200
00:46:47,670 --> 00:46:44,160
seriously troubled by fear

1201
00:46:49,750 --> 00:46:47,680
invisible feet on the stairs

1202
00:46:51,430 --> 00:46:49,760
one of the peculiar things about their

1203
00:46:54,390 --> 00:46:51,440
house was that we

1204
00:46:56,150 --> 00:46:54,400
could hear noises on the stairs as

1205
00:46:59,109 --> 00:46:56,160
though someone were walking

1206
00:46:59,510 --> 00:46:59,119
up and down we explained to one another

1207
00:47:01,829 --> 00:46:59,520
that

1208
00:47:03,109 --> 00:47:01,839
of course the noises were created by

1209
00:47:06,309 --> 00:47:03,119
quite natural means

1210
00:47:06,790 --> 00:47:06,319
and they may have been but there was no

1211
00:47:09,589 --> 00:47:06,800
direct

1212
00:47:11,109 --> 00:47:09,599
evidence on the point we speculated a

1213
00:47:14,230 --> 00:47:11,119
good deal but

1214
00:47:15,190 --> 00:47:14,240
could never get an entirely satisfactory

1215
00:47:18,069 --> 00:47:15,200
theory

1216
00:47:19,510 --> 00:47:18,079
however we were not too much distracted

1217
00:47:21,990 --> 00:47:19,520
by these noises

1218
00:47:22,950 --> 00:47:22,000
nor by one or two other strange

1219
00:47:26,309 --> 00:47:22,960
sensations

1220
00:47:28,710 --> 00:47:26,319
experienced i was personally troubled by

1221
00:47:29,750 --> 00:47:28,720
an extraordinary feeling of chill that

1222
00:47:32,790 --> 00:47:29,760
attacked me

1223
00:47:35,270 --> 00:47:32,800
on one side when in bed

1224
00:47:36,549 --> 00:47:35,280
the side of the bed on which i slept was

1225
00:47:39,829 --> 00:47:36,559
along the wall

1226
00:47:42,549 --> 00:47:39,839
from which hung a bell rope

1227
00:47:44,790 --> 00:47:42,559
i at first thought the proximity of the

1228
00:47:48,470 --> 00:47:44,800
wall accounted for the chill

1229
00:47:51,109 --> 00:47:48,480
but the wall was not damp and no amount

1230
00:47:52,230 --> 00:47:51,119
of bed clothes or rugs placed between my

1231
00:47:55,510 --> 00:47:52,240
body and the wall

1232
00:47:58,630 --> 00:47:55,520
checked the cold feeling it was

1233
00:48:01,910 --> 00:47:58,640
as though some chilled body

1234
00:48:04,549 --> 00:48:01,920
lay next to mine my left side

1235
00:48:05,510 --> 00:48:04,559
and the sensation was distinctly

1236
00:48:08,230 --> 00:48:05,520
unpleasant

1237
00:48:11,030 --> 00:48:08,240
i encountered this many times and could

1238
00:48:14,390 --> 00:48:11,040
never account for it to my satisfaction

1239
00:48:16,549 --> 00:48:14,400
although i affected to do so

1240
00:48:18,150 --> 00:48:16,559
i was laying on this bed one night

1241
00:48:20,710 --> 00:48:18,160
perhaps it would have been

1242
00:48:22,549 --> 00:48:20,720
about one in the morning when i was

1243
00:48:25,030 --> 00:48:22,559
awakened by someone

1244
00:48:26,150 --> 00:48:25,040
the room was in darkness my wife was

1245
00:48:29,190 --> 00:48:26,160
asleep by my

1246
00:48:33,109 --> 00:48:29,200
side i lay perfectly still listening

1247
00:48:37,349 --> 00:48:33,119
again i felt my toes handled

1248
00:48:40,470 --> 00:48:37,359
not roughly but almost playfully

1249
00:48:42,870 --> 00:48:40,480
i was scared very scared for the moment

1250
00:48:43,990 --> 00:48:42,880
there was something uncanny about the

1251
00:48:48,230 --> 00:48:44,000
touch

1252
00:48:51,910 --> 00:48:48,240
but i soon collected myself and conclude

1253
00:48:52,710 --> 00:48:51,920
that someone was wondering about the

1254
00:48:55,829 --> 00:48:52,720
house

1255
00:48:59,109 --> 00:48:55,839
i woke my wife lit the gas

1256
00:48:59,750 --> 00:48:59,119
and went all over the house the doors

1257
00:49:02,390 --> 00:48:59,760
were locked

1258
00:49:04,230 --> 00:49:02,400
just as they were when we went to bed

1259
00:49:05,430 --> 00:49:04,240
and everyone in the house was sound

1260
00:49:08,710 --> 00:49:05,440
asleep

1261
00:49:11,030 --> 00:49:08,720
this was indeed puzzling after

1262
00:49:13,589 --> 00:49:11,040
discussing the affair for some time

1263
00:49:14,309 --> 00:49:13,599
we went to bed again leaving the gas

1264
00:49:16,870 --> 00:49:14,319
burning

1265
00:49:18,150 --> 00:49:16,880
naturally i kept my eyes fixed on the

1266
00:49:20,710 --> 00:49:18,160
foot of the bed

1267
00:49:21,430 --> 00:49:20,720
the doorway was there and when the door

1268
00:49:23,829 --> 00:49:21,440
was open

1269
00:49:25,510 --> 00:49:23,839
it was up against the bedstead it was

1270
00:49:28,630 --> 00:49:25,520
open then

1271
00:49:29,670 --> 00:49:28,640
the bell pull a long cord or rope which

1272
00:49:33,270 --> 00:49:29,680
i have mentioned

1273
00:49:36,950 --> 00:49:33,280
as hanging down the side of the wall

1274
00:49:39,190 --> 00:49:36,960
was this night thrown over the door

1275
00:49:40,470 --> 00:49:39,200
i presume someone of the family had

1276
00:49:43,670 --> 00:49:40,480
placed it there

1277
00:49:46,470 --> 00:49:43,680
anyhow it was in that position

1278
00:49:48,549 --> 00:49:46,480
when i was aroused when hanging in its

1279
00:49:51,750 --> 00:49:48,559
normal position down the wall

1280
00:49:52,870 --> 00:49:51,760
it was right against my left hand it did

1281
00:49:55,190 --> 00:49:52,880
not ring a bell

1282
00:49:57,270 --> 00:49:55,200
when pulled because of a defect

1283
00:49:59,510 --> 00:49:57,280
somewhere in the wire connection

1284
00:50:01,030 --> 00:49:59,520
a few minutes passed and i was still

1285
00:50:04,309 --> 00:50:01,040
watching the foot of the bed

1286
00:50:05,270 --> 00:50:04,319
and the door when my feet were once more

1287
00:50:07,349 --> 00:50:05,280
handled

1288
00:50:08,390 --> 00:50:07,359
i sat up but could not see nothing

1289
00:50:10,950 --> 00:50:08,400
unusual

1290
00:50:12,790 --> 00:50:10,960
but while gazing in astonishment not

1291
00:50:15,990 --> 00:50:12,800
unmingled with fear perhaps

1292
00:50:18,710 --> 00:50:16,000
at the bed railing where my toes reached

1293
00:50:19,990 --> 00:50:18,720
i distinctly noticed the bell rope over

1294
00:50:23,349 --> 00:50:20,000
the door

1295
00:50:25,910 --> 00:50:23,359
as though someone were pulling it from

1296
00:50:26,950 --> 00:50:25,920
the other side my wife stated that she

1297
00:50:28,870 --> 00:50:26,960
also saw this

1298
00:50:30,230 --> 00:50:28,880
i had once got out of bed and made

1299
00:50:32,790 --> 00:50:30,240
another tour of the house

1300
00:50:33,829 --> 00:50:32,800
with the same result as before there was

1301
00:50:36,950 --> 00:50:33,839
no more sleep

1302
00:50:39,030 --> 00:50:36,960
until daylight came the next day

1303
00:50:39,990 --> 00:50:39,040
the bed was moved to another part of the

1304
00:50:42,309 --> 00:50:40,000
room and

1305
00:50:43,430 --> 00:50:42,319
no further experiences of the kinds

1306
00:50:46,950 --> 00:50:43,440
described

1307
00:50:50,230 --> 00:50:46,960
fell to our lot speaking for myself

1308
00:50:50,870 --> 00:50:50,240
i did not want any some time after we

1309
00:50:53,430 --> 00:50:50,880
heard in

1310
00:50:55,589 --> 00:50:53,440
quite an ordinary way that one of the

1311
00:50:55,990 --> 00:50:55,599
persons who had died in the house had

1312
00:50:59,190 --> 00:50:56,000
slept

1313
00:51:01,109 --> 00:50:59,200
exactly where i did whether there is any

1314
00:51:01,910 --> 00:51:01,119
connection between this fact and the

1315
00:51:04,309 --> 00:51:01,920
others

1316
00:51:05,030 --> 00:51:04,319
i have mentioned i did not venture to

1317
00:51:07,750 --> 00:51:05,040
say

1318
00:51:09,430 --> 00:51:07,760
but certainly the whole affair seemed

1319
00:51:12,790 --> 00:51:09,440
and still seems

1320
00:51:15,430 --> 00:51:12,800
very strange other experiences

1321
00:51:16,790 --> 00:51:15,440
i have had in the same house were sharp

1322
00:51:18,790 --> 00:51:16,800
loud wrapping

1323
00:51:20,790 --> 00:51:18,800
with the front door knocker in the dead

1324
00:51:24,790 --> 00:51:20,800
of the night about 1am

1325
00:51:26,870 --> 00:51:24,800
with no sound of anyone coming or going

1326
00:51:28,230 --> 00:51:26,880
and no one to be seen when the door was

1327
00:51:31,190 --> 00:51:28,240
opened and the

1328
00:51:31,829 --> 00:51:31,200
bouncing of a ball in the drawing room

1329
00:51:34,790 --> 00:51:31,839
the latter

1330
00:51:37,190 --> 00:51:34,800
was rather curious most people know the

1331
00:51:37,990 --> 00:51:37,200
sound of a hollow india rubber ball when

1332
00:51:41,190 --> 00:51:38,000
bounced

1333
00:51:41,910 --> 00:51:41,200
and they will i think agree with me that

1334
00:51:44,790 --> 00:51:41,920
it is a

1335
00:51:47,109 --> 00:51:44,800
sound easily recognized one night the

1336
00:51:49,829 --> 00:51:47,119
younger children had been playing with a

1337
00:51:50,950 --> 00:51:49,839
india rubber ball in the drawing room

1338
00:51:53,990 --> 00:51:50,960
and the ball was

1339
00:51:54,630 --> 00:51:54,000
left there after they went to bed deep

1340
00:51:56,790 --> 00:51:54,640
in the night

1341
00:51:57,990 --> 00:51:56,800
i was laying awake i often had the

1342
00:52:02,069 --> 00:51:58,000
sensation that i

1343
00:52:04,630 --> 00:52:02,079
had been awakened but did not know how

1344
00:52:05,670 --> 00:52:04,640
when i heard this ball being bounced in

1345
00:52:07,430 --> 00:52:05,680
the drawing room

1346
00:52:08,870 --> 00:52:07,440
it was just as though someone were

1347
00:52:11,829 --> 00:52:08,880
bouncing the ball

1348
00:52:12,390 --> 00:52:11,839
on the carpet readers may suggest that

1349
00:52:17,750 --> 00:52:12,400
there

1350
00:52:20,950 --> 00:52:17,760
and keep on bouncing a ball

1351
00:52:22,710 --> 00:52:20,960
investigation revealed nothing save that

1352
00:52:25,270 --> 00:52:22,720
the ball was on the floor

1353
00:52:26,470 --> 00:52:25,280
and we believed it was on the table when

1354
00:52:29,270 --> 00:52:26,480
we went to bed

1355
00:52:30,470 --> 00:52:29,280
the room was locked up both doors and

1356
00:52:33,670 --> 00:52:30,480
windows

1357
00:52:34,710 --> 00:52:33,680
when the family retired and there was no

1358
00:52:38,150 --> 00:52:34,720
cat there

1359
00:52:39,750 --> 00:52:38,160
i have had no explanation to offer as to

1360
00:52:43,589 --> 00:52:39,760
these happenings

1361
00:52:47,030 --> 00:52:43,599
i merely relate them as they did happen

1362
00:52:47,829 --> 00:52:47,040
i do not assert that the house is or was

1363
00:52:50,710 --> 00:52:47,839
haunted but

1364
00:52:52,870 --> 00:52:50,720
merely that the whole thing is

1365
00:52:55,190 --> 00:52:52,880
inexplainable to me

1366
00:52:58,309 --> 00:52:55,200
i should certainly like to know if

1367
00:53:01,790 --> 00:52:58,319
others have had similar experiences

1368
00:53:04,100 --> 00:53:01,800
and their theories about them signed

1369
00:53:06,390 --> 00:53:04,110
investigator

1370
00:53:08,549 --> 00:53:06,400
[Music]

1371
00:53:10,430 --> 00:53:08,559
so let's see if anybody replied to that

1372
00:53:14,820 --> 00:53:10,440
letter

1373
00:53:15,910 --> 00:53:14,830
119 years ago

1374
00:53:19,750 --> 00:53:15,920
[Music]

1375
00:53:22,790 --> 00:53:19,760
and so in response to that interesting

1376
00:53:24,069 --> 00:53:22,800
request we first come to the sunday

1377
00:53:28,230 --> 00:53:24,079
times

1378
00:53:31,910 --> 00:53:28,240
in sydney and it is from

1379
00:53:37,410 --> 00:53:31,920
sunday the 18th of august 1901

1380
00:53:42,470 --> 00:53:38,549
[Music]

1381
00:53:45,829 --> 00:53:42,480
the following incident happened in 1891

1382
00:53:46,790 --> 00:53:45,839
that is just 10 years ago and i have not

1383
00:53:49,829 --> 00:53:46,800
forgotten

1384
00:53:52,390 --> 00:53:49,839
one single detail so vividly

1385
00:53:54,150 --> 00:53:52,400
it is impressed upon my memory i should

1386
00:53:56,230 --> 00:53:54,160
never have thought of putting it down

1387
00:53:58,230 --> 00:53:56,240
had i not read an article on the above

1388
00:54:01,910 --> 00:53:58,240
subject in last sunday's

1389
00:54:03,990 --> 00:54:01,920
times in the early part of 91

1390
00:54:05,109 --> 00:54:04,000
we were living in a four-roomed house in

1391
00:54:08,309 --> 00:54:05,119
surrey hills

1392
00:54:11,030 --> 00:54:08,319
it was a cozy little place but had one

1393
00:54:12,470 --> 00:54:11,040
fault it was not roomy enough for people

1394
00:54:14,549 --> 00:54:12,480
with children

1395
00:54:16,390 --> 00:54:14,559
one day when i was paying the rent to

1396
00:54:18,390 --> 00:54:16,400
the landlord he said to me

1397
00:54:19,829 --> 00:54:18,400
don't you think this house is rather too

1398
00:54:21,750 --> 00:54:19,839
small for you

1399
00:54:23,270 --> 00:54:21,760
i have another house empty and i'm sure

1400
00:54:25,589 --> 00:54:23,280
it would just suit you

1401
00:54:27,109 --> 00:54:25,599
it has twice the number of rooms and if

1402
00:54:29,990 --> 00:54:27,119
you'd like to take it

1403
00:54:30,710 --> 00:54:30,000
i would take half a crown a week off the

1404
00:54:33,589 --> 00:54:30,720
rent

1405
00:54:34,870 --> 00:54:33,599
as you are good tenants my husband and i

1406
00:54:37,589 --> 00:54:34,880
went to have a look

1407
00:54:39,270 --> 00:54:37,599
through the house but strange to say i

1408
00:54:39,990 --> 00:54:39,280
could not get a chance to see all the

1409
00:54:42,309 --> 00:54:40,000
rooms

1410
00:54:43,910 --> 00:54:42,319
as my baby started screaming as soon as

1411
00:54:46,150 --> 00:54:43,920
we stepped into the hallway

1412
00:54:47,589 --> 00:54:46,160
and would not be comforted i tried

1413
00:54:50,069 --> 00:54:47,599
everything to soothe it

1414
00:54:51,510 --> 00:54:50,079
but without a veil i had to take it out

1415
00:54:54,549 --> 00:54:51,520
into the street again

1416
00:54:59,030 --> 00:54:54,559
when it became quiet and i did not

1417
00:55:01,190 --> 00:54:59,040
trouble to go back a strange room

1418
00:55:03,270 --> 00:55:01,200
we took the house and i thought we were

1419
00:55:06,309 --> 00:55:03,280
going to be very comfortable

1420
00:55:09,670 --> 00:55:06,319
but we had reckoned without

1421
00:55:12,789 --> 00:55:09,680
the ghost for from the day we entered it

1422
00:55:14,950 --> 00:55:12,799
we never seemed to settle down the only

1423
00:55:17,430 --> 00:55:14,960
room in the house we did not like

1424
00:55:18,150 --> 00:55:17,440
was the one next to the street or the

1425
00:55:20,549 --> 00:55:18,160
front room

1426
00:55:21,670 --> 00:55:20,559
as it was called it was dreary looking

1427
00:55:24,390 --> 00:55:21,680
and miserable

1428
00:55:24,789 --> 00:55:24,400
even on a bright sunny day no matter how

1429
00:55:27,670 --> 00:55:24,799
you

1430
00:55:30,069 --> 00:55:27,680
coaxed it to look cheerful we thought

1431
00:55:30,710 --> 00:55:30,079
perhaps a fire in the great would alter

1432
00:55:33,430 --> 00:55:30,720
things

1433
00:55:35,349 --> 00:55:33,440
but no we never could sit in it longer

1434
00:55:38,150 --> 00:55:35,359
than a few minutes at a time

1435
00:55:39,750 --> 00:55:38,160
if i started to play the piano i never

1436
00:55:41,670 --> 00:55:39,760
finished the piece

1437
00:55:42,789 --> 00:55:41,680
if i wanted to write a letter i always

1438
00:55:45,510 --> 00:55:42,799
had to take it

1439
00:55:46,150 --> 00:55:45,520
into the dining room to finish it the

1440
00:55:48,230 --> 00:55:46,160
window

1441
00:55:50,390 --> 00:55:48,240
in that room was far too high for me to

1442
00:55:53,829 --> 00:55:50,400
fasten without standing on a stool

1443
00:55:56,549 --> 00:55:53,839
or chair so my husband made it a rule

1444
00:55:57,670 --> 00:55:56,559
to look to that window last thing before

1445
00:56:00,069 --> 00:55:57,680
retiring

1446
00:56:00,870 --> 00:56:00,079
he has told me since we left that he

1447
00:56:03,270 --> 00:56:00,880
never

1448
00:56:05,430 --> 00:56:03,280
once went into that room without a cold

1449
00:56:09,190 --> 00:56:05,440
shiver running down his back

1450
00:56:12,950 --> 00:56:09,200
and is a powerfully built man

1451
00:56:15,829 --> 00:56:12,960
nearly six foot high and one that scoffs

1452
00:56:16,390 --> 00:56:15,839
at the idea of ghosts well so it

1453
00:56:19,270 --> 00:56:16,400
happened

1454
00:56:21,750 --> 00:56:19,280
we gave up on that room in disgust and

1455
00:56:23,670 --> 00:56:21,760
moved the piano into the dining room

1456
00:56:25,270 --> 00:56:23,680
distributed other things wherever we

1457
00:56:27,829 --> 00:56:25,280
could find room for them

1458
00:56:28,309 --> 00:56:27,839
simply shut the door of the front room

1459
00:56:32,470 --> 00:56:28,319
and

1460
00:56:35,670 --> 00:56:32,480
left it alone in its dreariness

1461
00:56:38,309 --> 00:56:35,680
a memory that lives now

1462
00:56:40,789 --> 00:56:38,319
i am going to tell you of an experience

1463
00:56:41,910 --> 00:56:40,799
i had in that room the very next time we

1464
00:56:44,789 --> 00:56:41,920
used it

1465
00:56:46,950 --> 00:56:44,799
an experience which i shall never forget

1466
00:56:49,270 --> 00:56:46,960
as long as life lasts

1467
00:56:50,789 --> 00:56:49,280
i will leave it to my readers to say

1468
00:56:53,589 --> 00:56:50,799
whether the house is

1469
00:56:55,589 --> 00:56:53,599
haunted but what i'm going to relate i

1470
00:56:58,870 --> 00:56:55,599
give my word of honor

1471
00:56:59,829 --> 00:56:58,880
is really true when the baby was four

1472
00:57:02,630 --> 00:56:59,839
months old

1473
00:57:03,190 --> 00:57:02,640
it was very ill with bronchitis and sort

1474
00:57:05,829 --> 00:57:03,200
of

1475
00:57:07,670 --> 00:57:05,839
wasting away the doctor advised me to

1476
00:57:08,789 --> 00:57:07,680
keep it in a room where i could have a

1477
00:57:11,190 --> 00:57:08,799
fire going

1478
00:57:12,069 --> 00:57:11,200
night and day so that the temperature

1479
00:57:15,109 --> 00:57:12,079
could be warm

1480
00:57:17,190 --> 00:57:15,119
and even i tried a fire in our bedroom

1481
00:57:18,150 --> 00:57:17,200
but it disturbed my husband and kept him

1482
00:57:20,150 --> 00:57:18,160
awake

1483
00:57:21,270 --> 00:57:20,160
and as he worked rather hard during the

1484
00:57:25,190 --> 00:57:21,280
day that would

1485
00:57:27,990 --> 00:57:25,200
not do so i determined to go into a room

1486
00:57:29,349 --> 00:57:28,000
all to myself and pitched on the empty

1487
00:57:32,230 --> 00:57:29,359
room downstairs

1488
00:57:32,710 --> 00:57:32,240
i lit a fire early next morning and had

1489
00:57:35,109 --> 00:57:32,720
a small

1490
00:57:35,829 --> 00:57:35,119
bedstead put up and made everything in

1491
00:57:39,190 --> 00:57:35,839
readiness

1492
00:57:42,069 --> 00:57:39,200
for the night it was on a saturday

1493
00:57:43,430 --> 00:57:42,079
and it was about 11 o'clock when we

1494
00:57:46,630 --> 00:57:43,440
started to lock up

1495
00:57:47,270 --> 00:57:46,640
that night my husband went upstairs to

1496
00:57:49,990 --> 00:57:47,280
bed

1497
00:57:50,309 --> 00:57:50,000
leaving me downstairs with my baby i am

1498
00:57:53,030 --> 00:57:50,319
not

1499
00:57:54,150 --> 00:57:53,040
a nervous woman by any means but i

1500
00:57:57,270 --> 00:57:54,160
confess

1501
00:58:01,109 --> 00:57:57,280
i feel a bit creepy when i think

1502
00:58:02,870 --> 00:58:01,119
of that night my prayers finished

1503
00:58:04,390 --> 00:58:02,880
i happened to look at the little clock

1504
00:58:07,430 --> 00:58:04,400
on the mantelpiece

1505
00:58:09,829 --> 00:58:07,440
it was a quarter to twelve i imagined i

1506
00:58:11,510 --> 00:58:09,839
was in for a quiet night as baby was

1507
00:58:14,549 --> 00:58:11,520
sleeping soundly

1508
00:58:15,750 --> 00:58:14,559
quite an unusual thing i laid down and

1509
00:58:18,630 --> 00:58:15,760
blew out the light

1510
00:58:19,030 --> 00:58:18,640
which was on the chair beside the bed

1511
00:58:22,630 --> 00:58:19,040
when

1512
00:58:25,990 --> 00:58:22,640
immediately something seemed either to

1513
00:58:28,950 --> 00:58:26,000
fall or strike me on the chest

1514
00:58:30,630 --> 00:58:28,960
i put out my hand to find the cause and

1515
00:58:34,870 --> 00:58:30,640
distinctly felt

1516
00:58:38,390 --> 00:58:34,880
a hand but it was deformed in some way

1517
00:58:41,990 --> 00:58:38,400
and seemed as if covered with a stocking

1518
00:58:42,870 --> 00:58:42,000
a figure of a woman my first thought was

1519
00:58:45,109 --> 00:58:42,880
burglars

1520
00:58:46,309 --> 00:58:45,119
and like a shot i struck a match which i

1521
00:58:49,589 --> 00:58:46,319
always keep

1522
00:58:53,030 --> 00:58:49,599
close to my hand under the pillow when

1523
00:58:54,789 --> 00:58:53,040
to my horror and surprise i saw a woman

1524
00:58:56,390 --> 00:58:54,799
sitting close to me on the edge of the

1525
00:58:58,630 --> 00:58:56,400
bed

1526
00:59:00,390 --> 00:58:58,640
she had her back to me i had time to

1527
00:59:03,109 --> 00:59:00,400
note that she had a pretty

1528
00:59:04,230 --> 00:59:03,119
shaped head with sort of curly brown

1529
00:59:07,910 --> 00:59:04,240
hair

1530
00:59:11,190 --> 00:59:07,920
she had but one garment on a shimmy

1531
00:59:11,750 --> 00:59:11,200
and i saw her bare arms and shoulders as

1532
00:59:15,349 --> 00:59:11,760
plain

1533
00:59:17,430 --> 00:59:15,359
as i saw anything in my life

1534
00:59:19,349 --> 00:59:17,440
i remember perfectly well saying out

1535
00:59:21,990 --> 00:59:19,359
loud my god

1536
00:59:23,589 --> 00:59:22,000
who is it and lighting the candle at the

1537
00:59:26,549 --> 00:59:23,599
same time

1538
00:59:27,430 --> 00:59:26,559
when she disappeared as quickly as she

1539
00:59:29,829 --> 00:59:27,440
came

1540
00:59:30,950 --> 00:59:29,839
i assure you it did not take me long to

1541
00:59:34,150 --> 00:59:30,960
jump out of bed

1542
00:59:37,030 --> 00:59:34,160
snatched up a blanket roll baby in it

1543
00:59:38,870 --> 00:59:37,040
and grabbed my candlestick and off

1544
00:59:40,950 --> 00:59:38,880
within five minutes of first putting out

1545
00:59:42,470 --> 00:59:40,960
the light i was upstairs standing beside

1546
00:59:45,349 --> 00:59:42,480
my husband's bed

1547
00:59:47,270 --> 00:59:45,359
with a face as white as a sheet he tried

1548
00:59:48,150 --> 00:59:47,280
his hardest to persuade me that i was

1549
00:59:50,470 --> 00:59:48,160
mistaken

1550
00:59:51,829 --> 00:59:50,480
and even offered to go down and sleep

1551
00:59:54,950 --> 00:59:51,839
below himself

1552
00:59:55,750 --> 00:59:54,960
but i would not hear of him leaving me

1553
00:59:58,069 --> 00:59:55,760
again

1554
00:59:59,270 --> 00:59:58,079
he said perhaps i had fallen asleep and

1555
01:00:02,630 --> 00:59:59,280
dreamt it

1556
01:00:04,230 --> 01:00:02,640
how could i i said pointing to the watch

1557
01:00:06,789 --> 01:00:04,240
at the head of the bed

1558
01:00:07,670 --> 01:00:06,799
he had regulated the clock downstairs by

1559
01:00:11,990 --> 01:00:07,680
it

1560
01:00:16,390 --> 01:00:12,000
had been talking

1561
01:00:18,630 --> 01:00:16,400
too now did i see a ghost or not

1562
01:00:20,549 --> 01:00:18,640
i am not under the impression that i did

1563
01:00:23,270 --> 01:00:20,559
there's nothing extraordinary happened

1564
01:00:23,829 --> 01:00:23,280
during the day to excite my brain

1565
01:00:25,910 --> 01:00:23,839
neither

1566
01:00:27,430 --> 01:00:25,920
had i taken anything in the shape of

1567
01:00:29,910 --> 01:00:27,440
stimulants

1568
01:00:30,870 --> 01:00:29,920
we moved a week or two afterwards to a

1569
01:00:33,190 --> 01:00:30,880
better house

1570
01:00:34,069 --> 01:00:33,200
some people to whom i relayed what

1571
01:00:37,510 --> 01:00:34,079
happened

1572
01:00:40,789 --> 01:00:37,520
said it was only a presentment and

1573
01:00:42,150 --> 01:00:40,799
it may have been as soon after we buried

1574
01:00:45,430 --> 01:00:42,160
our dear baby

1575
01:00:46,309 --> 01:00:45,440
i often pass that house and nine times

1576
01:00:50,150 --> 01:00:46,319
out of ten

1577
01:00:57,270 --> 01:00:50,160
the board is out to let

1578
01:00:59,670 --> 01:00:57,280
signed apparition

1579
01:01:01,829 --> 01:00:59,680
so there we are just a few of the

1580
01:01:03,430 --> 01:01:01,839
thousands i dare say of reports of

1581
01:01:07,510 --> 01:01:03,440
spooky goings on

1582
01:01:12,150 --> 01:01:07,520
from the archive trove trove.nla.gov

1583
01:01:15,589 --> 01:01:14,309
bouncing balls and somebody tickling the

1584
01:01:36,630 --> 01:01:15,599
feet

1585
01:01:39,990 --> 01:01:38,549
thank you for listening to the skeptic's

1586
01:01:42,470 --> 01:01:40,000
own podcast and thank you

1587
01:01:44,230 --> 01:01:42,480
to all those birds out there outside the

1588
01:01:46,710 --> 01:01:44,240
studio i went out and i had a long

1589
01:01:47,430 --> 01:01:46,720
talk with them and they decided to keep

1590
01:01:49,589 --> 01:01:47,440
chirping

1591
01:01:50,710 --> 01:01:49,599
and singing and calling and whatever

1592
01:01:52,630 --> 01:01:50,720
they do

1593
01:01:54,710 --> 01:01:52,640
now some important information has come

1594
01:01:56,710 --> 01:01:54,720
my way from belgium

1595
01:01:58,150 --> 01:01:56,720
a multi-millionaire is suing some

1596
01:02:01,270 --> 01:01:58,160
authors

1597
01:02:01,829 --> 01:02:01,280
about some skeptical work they did press

1598
01:02:03,430 --> 01:02:01,839
here for

1599
01:02:05,029 --> 01:02:03,440
english translation i'm just reading

1600
01:02:07,829 --> 01:02:05,039
this straight off the page

1601
01:02:08,230 --> 01:02:07,839
a multi-millionaire sues our authors why

1602
01:02:11,109 --> 01:02:08,240
bart

1603
01:02:11,510 --> 01:02:11,119
and patrick need your financial support

1604
01:02:14,069 --> 01:02:11,520
and

1605
01:02:16,870 --> 01:02:14,079
i will link to this in the show notes so

1606
01:02:19,750 --> 01:02:16,880
you can see this for yourself

1607
01:02:20,069 --> 01:02:19,760
our authors wrote a skeptical article

1608
01:02:23,190 --> 01:02:20,079
for

1609
01:02:25,349 --> 01:02:23,200
the belgium skep magazine

1610
01:02:26,870 --> 01:02:25,359
about two companies active in the field

1611
01:02:29,309 --> 01:02:26,880
of human resources

1612
01:02:30,470 --> 01:02:29,319
that use dubious theories such as

1613
01:02:33,270 --> 01:02:30,480
neuro-linguistic

1614
01:02:33,990 --> 01:02:33,280
programming and characterization of

1615
01:02:37,910 --> 01:02:34,000
people based

1616
01:02:40,950 --> 01:02:37,920
on their skull what

1617
01:02:44,870 --> 01:02:43,910
anyway i'll link to this i don't have

1618
01:02:47,190 --> 01:02:44,880
time to

1619
01:02:48,870 --> 01:02:47,200
go into this topic deeply at the moment

1620
01:02:50,150 --> 01:02:48,880
but you can check that out for yourself

1621
01:02:52,789 --> 01:02:50,160
and see

1622
01:02:53,829 --> 01:02:52,799
if if you think these people need your

1623
01:02:55,990 --> 01:02:53,839
support

1624
01:02:57,430 --> 01:02:56,000
i encourage you to have a look link in

1625
01:02:59,990 --> 01:02:57,440
this week's show notes

1626
01:03:01,589 --> 01:03:00,000
thank you a big thank you a very big

1627
01:03:04,630 --> 01:03:01,599
thank you to my

1628
01:03:06,390 --> 01:03:04,640
old buddy and colleague ben radford who

1629
01:03:08,230 --> 01:03:06,400
appeared here in sydney at sydney

1630
01:03:09,190 --> 01:03:08,240
skeptics in the pub just a few nights

1631
01:03:11,670 --> 01:03:09,200
ago

1632
01:03:13,829 --> 01:03:11,680
although it was 3am where he was in

1633
01:03:15,430 --> 01:03:13,839
albuquerque new mexico he spoke for

1634
01:03:15,990 --> 01:03:15,440
almost an hour and took questions from

1635
01:03:17,670 --> 01:03:16,000
the audience

1636
01:03:19,349 --> 01:03:17,680
afterwards what an effort thank you very

1637
01:03:21,349 --> 01:03:19,359
much ben radford

1638
01:03:22,549 --> 01:03:21,359
and i look forward to one day hosting

1639
01:03:25,670 --> 01:03:22,559
you here

1640
01:03:28,309 --> 01:03:25,680
in person i'll take you on a tour of

1641
01:03:29,750 --> 01:03:28,319
sydney and we can look at the birds

1642
01:03:32,069 --> 01:03:29,760
now personally i don't have anything

1643
01:03:35,190 --> 01:03:32,079
against birds i like feeding ducks

1644
01:03:37,910 --> 01:03:35,200
but sometimes and it's not long to go

1645
01:03:39,910 --> 01:03:37,920
now until skepticon 2020 the australian

1646
01:03:42,829 --> 01:03:39,920
skeptics national convention

1647
01:03:45,910 --> 01:03:42,839
get your tickets and more information at

1648
01:03:50,150 --> 01:03:48,549
see you there and just before i go once

1649
01:03:51,950 --> 01:03:50,160
again my thanks to those people who

1650
01:03:53,829 --> 01:03:51,960
subscribe to the skeptic zone at

1651
01:03:56,829 --> 01:03:53,839
skepticzone.tv

1652
01:03:57,990 --> 01:03:56,839
and back the show with the financial

1653
01:04:01,109 --> 01:03:58,000
support

1654
01:04:02,789 --> 01:04:01,119
absolutely vital and i guess something

1655
01:04:03,990 --> 01:04:02,799
is either vital or it's not that's an

1656
01:04:05,990 --> 01:04:04,000
absolute isn't it

1657
01:04:08,390 --> 01:04:06,000
it's a superlative so you can't have

1658
01:04:11,109 --> 01:04:08,400
absolutely it is vital

1659
01:04:11,670 --> 01:04:11,119
no support no skeptic zone as simple as

1660
01:04:13,589 --> 01:04:11,680
that

1661
01:04:15,109 --> 01:04:13,599
and as you know this year has been

1662
01:04:17,270 --> 01:04:15,119
bonkers crazy

1663
01:04:19,670 --> 01:04:17,280
and i have personally lost a lot of

1664
01:04:22,230 --> 01:04:19,680
income from other things i used to do

1665
01:04:22,710 --> 01:04:22,240
before this madness hit so your support

1666
01:04:36,710 --> 01:04:22,720
is

1667
01:04:41,270 --> 01:04:36,720
zone podcast

1668
01:04:44,309 --> 01:04:41,280
please visit our website at www.skeptics

1669
01:04:46,309 --> 01:04:44,319
for show notes contacts and to access

1670
01:04:49,829 --> 01:04:46,319
the back catalog of episodes

1671
01:04:51,910 --> 01:04:49,839
going back to 2008. you can follow the

1672
01:04:55,349 --> 01:04:51,920
skeptic zone podcast on twitter

1673
01:04:58,950 --> 01:04:55,359
at skepticzone visit our facebook page

1674
01:05:00,309 --> 01:04:58,960
or leave a review on itunes you can also

1675
01:05:03,510 --> 01:05:00,319
support the skeptic zone

1676
01:05:04,309 --> 01:05:03,520
via patreon or paypal the skeptic zone

1677
01:05:07,190 --> 01:05:04,319
podcast

1678
01:05:08,950 --> 01:05:07,200
is an independent production the views

1679
01:05:09,430 --> 01:05:08,960
and opinions expressed on the skeptic

1680
01:05:11,430 --> 01:05:09,440
zone

1681
01:05:12,630 --> 01:05:11,440
are not necessarily those of australian